Best practices of GUE versus other dive programs ?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

If the industry needs that many instructors so badly, why is it so hard for them to make a living wage.

Because the glut of instructors allows them to pay very little and allows them to profit in the race to the bottom.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I’m not saying I’m a great diver and have flawless skills or anything like that and I passed fundies after 34 dives. Fundies skill requirements really isn’t too hard to get a rec pass!! It’s the Tech pass...

Agreed. You probably had a good foundation and you didn’t acquire bad habits that your fundies instructor had to break.

 

[boulderjohn]

You can find a lot of helpful information on GUE divers mixing with non-GUE divers in various websites. One of them is for the Bay Area Underwater Explorers, whose mission is described this way.

BAUE is a non-profit organization dedicated to the exploration and conservation of our planet's underwater regions. Most of our activities take place in Northern California. To achieve our goals, we apply the philosophy, standards, and procedures of diving originated by George Irvine and Jarrod Jablonski, and taught through Global Underwater Explorers.​

Part of their helpful information is a library of past writings. One of them is a list of reasons why you should not use dive computers by GUE leader Jarrod Jablonski. It is a very interesting list.

The one that is most relevant to this thread was written by Dan Volker. As Dan explained in a ScubaBoard thread, he had been assigned the task of bringing DIR/GUE principles to the recreational dive community, and this essay was part of that effort. In the last paragraph he explains what you should do if you are doing a recreational dive and don't have a like-minded buddy along with you.

And of course, keep in mind an even bigger rule than all others mentioned in this article--Rule number one is don't dive with unsafe divers. Try to dive only with people you know are safe, and who dive the same procedures and configurations you do. If you are "stuck" with someone you see gearing up badly, with a poor configuration, try a good natured explanation of why the "Doing it Right" system would have him/her configured differently.​

 

[LordElrond]

Sounds like the OW class I took, only it took 6 weeks. Granted it was more spread out over time, but would take more than 5 days jammed togather, not counting homework. 1980 NAUI/PADI certs.

Bob

I REALLY wouldn't want to be the poor guy who does Rec 1 in 5 days straight (even if it possible, and I doubt it)

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I’m clueless so this is an honest question. How is that possible?

You’ve been waived by the powers that be!?!

I just called Katie at GUE to confirm. Yes. I do not have a GUE-F card. I have Tech 1 and Tech 2. There is a note from Bob Sherwood saying I completed a GUE-F evaluation with Ed Hayes who granted me a tech pass. But, yeah, they have no official certification processed so they cannot issue me a GUE-F certification card. Katie said, "Back then it was a different time. The organization would not do that today."

 

[Lorenzoid]

I’m not saying I’m a great diver and have flawless skills or anything like that and I passed fundies after 34 dives. Fundies skill requirements really isn’t too hard to get a rec pass!! It’s the Tech pass...

Thanks for the blanket assertion. I found it hard to get a rec pass (in rec gear). Well, it's not so much that it's hard as that it can take a lot of dedication and practice for those of us who are not naturally talented. For me, it took first practicing just getting stable and remaining in one place, and then practicing doing each skill while stable and in one place, over and over and over. I spent 10 hours of bottom time in a pool after my first attempt at Fundies before going back to nail a rec pass. I have to believe I'm not alone. (Well, I know I'm not alone because my wife and I did it together, and she had just as hard a time as I did.) I can't imagine every OW cert agency adopting a Fundies-like performance threshold. Fundies and Rec 1 are there for those of a certain mindset who have the determination to put in the time and effort and believe the results will be worth it. Not everyone is going to want to put in the kind of time and effort it takes some of us.

As for the tech pass versus rec pass, I have used an analogy before from my experience in training to run marathons. Like training to run a full marathon is way more than twice as hard as training to run a half marathon, training to perform at tech pass level is way more than twice as hard as training to perform at rec pass level. I'm going to say it is taking me 10 times as much practice time as I put in to get the rec pass. I will probably have 100 hours of practice in doubles and drysuit by the time I get that tech pass. Sorry for the off-topic venting.

 

[Dogbowl]

Thanks for the blanket assertion. I found it hard to get a rec pass (in rec gear). Well, it's not so much that it's hard as that it can take a lot of dedication and practice for those of us who are not naturally talented. For me, it took first practicing just getting stable and remaining in one place, and then practicing doing each skill while stable and in one place, over and over and over. I spent 10 hours of bottom time in a pool after my first attempt at Fundies before going back to nail a rec pass. I have to believe I'm not alone. (Well, I know I'm not alone because my wife and I did it together, and she had just as hard a time as I did.) I can't imagine every OW cert agency adopting a Fundies-like performance threshold. Fundies and Rec 1 are there for those of a certain mindset who have the determination to put in the time and effort and believe the results will be worth it. Not everyone is going to want to put in the kind of time and effort it takes some of us.

As for the tech pass versus rec pass, I have used an analogy before from my experience in training to run marathons. Like training to run a full marathon is way more than twice as hard as training to run a half marathon, training to perform at tech pass level is way more than twice as hard as training to perform at rec pass level. I'm going to say it is taking me 10 times as much practice time as I put in to get the rec pass. I will probably have 100 hours of practice in doubles and drysuit by the time I get that tech pass. Sorry for the off-topic venting.

As you already know, you and your wife are not the only ones...there are others, many others, including me of course.

 

[taimen]

@Lorenzoid and @Dogbowl
Don't take this personally.
You had considarable rec diving experience after your ow training before taking fundies.
I assume it would have been easier if your basic training had started neutrally buoyant and in trim.
That is the difference we are talking about and the key element that shoud be exported to other programs.

 

[elgoog]

@Lorenzoid - All good points in #104, I don't think it's possible to keep the current duration and cost of OW classes and get the same experience as Fundies. I do still think you need at add to OW but that means making it longer and more expensive which would discourage a fair number of divers. As an example, our local GUE instructor gets a few requests to conduct Rec 1 classes and actually asks them to do OW first, do a little diving and come back for Fundies. Rec 1 is a big commitment for someone who hasn't dived at all.

As far as GUEEDGE taking a long time - yeah, definitely in the beginning but it's a lot quicker as you do it more and more. I see this and the SCR calculation as front loaded investments of time and effort which pay off essentially forever(tm).

For me, a lot of what you mentioned boils down to below. It's not just the training but everything that comes after that.

I don't think making anything more GUE-like is likely to change post-cert behavior.

This is not course related but I think it's important. I think having a cadre of GUE divers that you can dive with regularly works really well to reinforce continuing all the pre-dive checks, situational awareness, etc long after your class is done. Seeing everyone around you follow procedure goes a long way in making sure that becomes your normal. I'm lucky enough to have a very large GUE presence locally with whom I can dive regularly and regardless of their level of training, we approach the dives we do the exact same way.

I agree with you that GUE attracts a certain type of diver and that's absolutely a huge factor in this. I've dove with non-GUE divers quite a bit and it's been a lot rarer, unfortunately, to see any of this happening regularly.

I found it hard to get a rec pass (in rec gear). Well, it's not so much that it's hard as that it can take a lot of dedication and practice for those of us who are not naturally talented.

As you already know, you and your wife are not the only ones...and there are others, many others.

Aaaaannnnd, once again

 

[Dogbowl]

@Lorenzoid and @Dogbowl
Don't take this personally.
You had considarable rec diving experience after your ow training before taking fundies.
I assume it would been easier if your basic training had started neutrally buoyant and in trim.
That is the difference we are talking about and the key element that shoud be exported to other programs.

Ummmm I had 52 dives, not what I would consider a lot. I truly believe some ppl are natural divers and some of us aren’t. My husband is much more of a natural than I am, for example, and we trained and dived together. Our training and diving experience were the same, and yet he is just better than me in terms of buoyancy, balance, trim, etc.