Best practices of GUE versus other dive programs ?

[sigxbill]

Back to the original question: Two things I think other agencies could learn from GUE are attention to the QA process, and the insistence that their instructors are excellent divers. But of course having outstanding diving skills is only part of being a great instructor, teaching skills are just as important. And I'm not convinced that GUE is at the leading edge of that.

While GUE has a QA process, I think you may be mistaken about it's influence on their commitment to quality. I think QA is driven far more by GUE culture than the threat of their QA process. I would also point to culture to explain the level of QA in padi ...

Regarding your doubt that GUE leads in 'teaching skills,' I am not sure any if any organization can prove they lead in that area. Everyone learns differently from teachers of varying teaching styles and personality types. I think the percentage of various teaching styles and personality types in GUE is distributed similarly across other agencies as well. So with that in mind, I don't think it's fair to single out GUE as being possibly deficient in that area...

Cheers

 

[LordElrond]

Am I the only one here who took R1? LOL!

It’s the Tech pass...

Tech pass level is the f---ing solo mythic mode dungeon of diving. But I'll get there someday =D we will all get there!

I should have said "introductory GUE course" and not "Fundies". From what I've gleaned, Fundies and Rec 1 are quite similar in what they bring to the table and the requirements to pass. When I did Fundies part 1, I started with around 20 dives and those were spread out over 5 years so I consider myself having started Fundies essentially right after OW. I mean, I knew how to setup my rig (mostly), breath from a reg and clear my mask but that was about it.

For divers who are more experienced and are using Fundies as a gateway into the GUE system, what I said in my previous post is not applicable at all.

I don't have taken fundamentals, but I have heard too a couple of guys mentioning that Rec1 is about equal to Fundamentals. BTW, I didn't found R1 to be THAT hard. It is exhausting, it requires effort but it's not rocket science... both me and my girlfriend passed without problems. What I also heard is that teaching Rec 1 is somewhat easier than teaching GUE-F due to writing on a blank slate + having more time and students at the same level.

@Lorenzoid - All good points in #104, I don't think it's possible to keep the current duration and cost of OW classes and get the same experience as Fundies. I do still think you need at add to OW but that means making it longer and more expensive which would discourage a fair number of divers. As an example, our local GUE instructor gets a few requests to conduct Rec 1 classes and actually asks them to do OW first, do a little diving and come back for Fundies. Rec 1 is a big commitment for someone who hasn't dived at all.

Strange... A friend of mine with Padi OW card was suggested to retake Rec 1 instead of Fundamentals (they cost the same here) since (instructor's words) Fundies is a kick in the face, too hard and too dense. Refusing to teach Rec 1 sounds odd.

To the beginners reading this thread and those considering picking up SCUBA: There are many great instructors who will teach you safe and sound diving. They will go out of their way to teach you diving, a sport that will bring you many years of joy and happiness. Seek them out from whatever agency they may be from.

This is the core of the problem: HOW to seek them out and discern them from the masses of crappy instructor while knowing absolutely ZERO about diving, THEN making clear what do you want from your course. There is no guarantee that an amazing diver and instructor will raise the bar where we want him to, especially for an entry level course. On the other hand, when divers seek tech training they have already heard the names of top instructors around, on boats/clubs/whatever... In less than 100 dives I already know where I should go if I wanted to learn how to dive sidemount, or tech, or even CCR(!).
Rec 1 instead really, and badly, wipes the floor with every competition. I don't love GUE that much but you pay your money and you get your good training. No ifs, buts, choose your instructor BS, etc etc ... from dive 1 you start diving with a bit of knowledge of what you should do and look like, and the more you dive the more the training you received comes into its own. At least that has been my experience.

Seeing other divers with the same number of dives and training as me = OW+AOW, I play in another universe. Not being especially gifted, I conclude that the reason is that most other newbie divers like me were taught by people who should have no business teaching diving.

 

[Jack Hammer]

As a GUE diver, you don't need to replace any gear. The other 90% of divers accept the gear you use.

I think the issue is the other way around: what gear would the 90% of other divers need to replace to be able to dive with you.

Or another way to look at it: if you must have GUE gear, you should just plan to always bring your own gear with you when you travel. Personally, I don't think that's a big issue, but some people prefer the convenience of renting gear when they travel. If you're GUE, you might find only forbidden gear is available for rent.

I haven't needed to replace any gear in order to dive with non-GUE trained divers nor have they needed to replace any gear in order to dive with me. This is and has been the same locally and when I travel.

GUE has not once forbidden me once from diving with non-GUE trained divers. They haven't even suggested or implied it to me. I've also never been told what gear to purchase other than only buy quality made gear appropriate for the dives I'm making, no specific brand stated or implied

A lot of this is internet myth and regurgitated stuff carried forth from a long time back.

 

[Compressor]

Rec 1 instead really, and badly, wipes the floor with every competition. I don't love GUE that much but you pay your money and you get your good training. No ifs, buts, choose your instructor BS, etc etc ..

This statement is an insult to every instructor who is not a GUE instructor. Not very nice. If you want to believe it, its fine with me but is not factual. I just took a class from a non GUE instructor; it was an out of world experience in terms of quality and goodness.

 

[LordElrond]

This statement is an insult to every instructor who is not a GUE instructor. Not very nice. If you want to believe it, its dine with me. I just took a class from a non GUE instructor; it was an out of world experience in terms of quality and goodness.

Sorry it's obvious that there are comparable or better instructors somewhere... but if joe dir is on the 90th or 95th percentile of people who teach open water (emphasis on open water) allow me to use the "every" word!
The sentence you are contesting refers only to open water, maybe recreational, courses. Clearly a trimix or cave instructor most probably is good regardless of the card he issues but usually you don't get those guys to teach open water... With Gue R1 (UTD? RAID? ISE?) you do.

 

[Ayisha]

My PADI IE was in December 2015, almost 3 years ago. My IDC was on the knees. My IE was on the knees. I really don't think that one can consider a skill mastered when it is performed on the knees. I've heard of a few IE's being performed neutrally buoyant, but those are the exception (but awesome nonetheless). I've heard of some IE's where candidates were forced on the knees.

This is what I've also heard from people who have become instructors even in the last couple of years. They were conducted on their knees and one even said that they were told not to even attempt any demos in mid-water.

It's honestly still the same cycle repeating itself, no matter what wishful thinking some people have.

 

[Ayisha]

There are some people who at one time chose to participate in a GUE Fundies course but did not pass, and come onto every thread with any reference to GUE and add their input on what they didn't like, even on a thread like this, which isn't asking what you wouldn't import, but what you would. They should perhaps think about what it was that drew them to put quite a substantial time, effort and monetary commitment toward GUE in the first place. GUE instructors will not compromise on their signature. That's what it seems to boil down to. Perhaps that's what's needed to actually teach and certify to the standards.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

There are some people who at one time chose to participate in a GUE Fundies course but did not pass, and come onto every thread with any reference to GUE and add their input on what they didn't like, even on a thread like this, which isn't asking what you wouldn't import, but what you would. They should perhaps think about what it was that drew them to put quite a substantial time, effort and monetary commitment toward GUE in the first place. GUE instructors will not compromise on their signature. That's what it seems to boil down to.

One of the most vocal critics of GUE in my area is someone who couldn't earn a rec pass. He was an experienced instructor, and became obsessed with earning it, to the point of family and friends staging an intervention. Since that event, GUE is a cult (his words) and "no one wants to dive that way."

Hey, I don't agree with everything about GUE, UTD, or ISE, but I do respect their skillset and their insistence on a high bar of performance. Even if people don't earn a rec pass, they should walk away with dramatically improved skills. And that is the point. It isn't personal. And it shouldn't become personal.

 

[WantSomeScuba?]

Sure there are differences in how people learn. But our natural behavior in water is trying to keep our head as high as possible above the surface. Everything else in scuba diving is an acquired skill. I believe early instruction is very important for that.
Actually for the stuff done during GUE fundamentals gear matters quite a lot. If your drysuit does not fit well, or you have an undersuit that releases gas slowly you are going to blow the ascents for sure.

Hey! That's why I didn't pass Fundies the first time--holding stops in a BZ400 sucks.

That said, it wasn't the gear that was an issue, it was me, and specifically, my lack of patience and anticipation of how air moves through a drysuit. Its wasnt the gears fault I wasnt using it right. I got it sorted, but it's still something I have to mentally prep for coming up on deep ascents.

Otherwise, 30 feet turns into 13 reaaaal quick.

 

[taimen]

That said, it wasn't the gear that was an issue, it was me, and specifically, my lack of patience and anticipation of how air moves through a drysuit. Its wasnt the gears fault I wasnt using it right. I got it sorted, but it's still something I have to mentally prep for coming up on deep ascents.

Of course it is never a gear issue and a good diver can handle any gear. But I really meant that gear and conditions matter. It is easier to learn drysuit with thin undergarments that don't restrict gas and body movement. Most people take fundies when they are still learning.