Best practices of GUE versus other dive programs ?

[Trace Malinowski]

Round peg. Square hole.

 

[Dogbowl]

Sounds to me, though, that if GUE only allows their divers to train with equipment only 10% of the populous dives with, they're already setting them up for failure. Because let's face it, if you're doing any sort of resort diving or anything similar on location probably better than 95% of those divers will have trained using the same type of equipment everyone else is using rather than specialized gear. How many GUE divers are there compared to PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc.? So would it not be better to be proficient in using the typical "rec" style setup as opposed to a specialized setup like GUE, etc.? Imagine you've diving with say a PADI trained OW diver and they run into an OOA incident. Their training will likely have taught them to be looking for a brightly colored octo coming from the sharer's right side, rather than the dark colored primary in the sharer's mouth. Which of course leads into the bigger agencies teaching primary share. But even if they started that now, how many divers are out there that learned to share a secondary air source in an OOA situation?

I think it can be argued that in real world diving, the OOA diver will go straight for the regulator in the buddy's mouth, despite being taught otherwise. A PADI OW instructor and I were chatting about some of the OOA situations he's encountered, and I asked him which regulator the OOA diver went for in his experience. I did not tell him I dived a long hose, and I know he dived a standard recreational setup. He said, with no hesitation, "They always go for the one in my mouth, always." That kind of settled that for me.

FWIW, at the time, I was thinking of going back to recreational setup, short hoses, secondary donate.

 

[mainedvr]

As an instructor for a agency not GUE and having trained GUE there are many things that other agencies standards could benefit from. The primary donate is something that is taught based on configuration, if someone in a PADI class is using an Air2 they are donating their primary not their octo so I think having the longer primary is more of a cross over that would be great for other agencies, but will not happen.
More time in training I believe would be the biggest benefit, but would not fit the business model of say PADI. I find it frustrating when I have a student in a class of four and they are doing good with propulsion and buoyancy but just don't have the time to really refine it in the average class time allotted for OW. So the student meets the standard but really needs more guidance. (I often dive with those and help them after training during fun dives if I can)
It really IMHO comes down to the business end of it PADI courses (as an example) are half the cost of GUE courses in general and the time that you have with the instructor is reflective of that cost.

 

[scubadada]

Buoyancy, trim, and propulsion are good. Doing skills while neutral is good. These things can be relatively easily accomplished. PADI and the other of the most active training programs are not going to switch to a primary donate gear configuration. 100% of the rental gear I've seen around the world is short hose primary over the shoulder and longer hose donate under the arm. Regardless of what any of us use for our personal equipment, I just don't see this changing. SB is certainly not representative of the general diving public

 

[alvinsuper]

I am in a CMAS club and I assure you that it has no comparison. I’ve done both by the way.

I am only CMAS certified. On that subject, I think the post you quoted was only hinting at the courses organized by some of the CMAS federations, since CMAS sets the minimum requirements, but member federations are free to exceed them.

 

[rddvet]

Exactly what I was thinking. The lack of flexibility is GUE's biggest weakness in my opinion. Well, that and the elitist attitudes that some (but not all) gue divers tend to have.

I also don't like their use of helium on OC at shallow depths (100-130'). That's a massive waste of a limited resource. My opinion is that if you're doing dives that require helium you should be doing it on a ccr. Not that I do either... between clowns making balloons and divers blowing helium out into the atmosphere it seems like a real tragedy.

Strengths? The focus on buoyancy, trim, and propulsion.. as others have stated, that's not really unique to GUE though.

Maybe look into RAID? I've not taken classes from RAID or GUE but just going by what I've read, RAID sounds like a "best of GUE" with some improvements type of agency. Maybe I've got the wrong impression.

Oh Geez. I'm not a GUE diver, but wish I had started that route initially. I had never even heard of GUE until I took cavern. Alot of what you're saying just comes off silly to those informed about the realities of GUE. Sure there's some elitists, but that's a huge stereotype that gets thrown around. I think alot of it comes from people that wish they were GUE trained. Lack of flexibility is what keeps the GUE standards so high from instructor to instructor and student to student. Use of helium at 100-130 is definitely not silly. I really enjoy my Ginnie dives alot better with something like a 30/30 mix (not a GUE standard mix for 100-130 I know).

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I also don't like their use of helium on OC at shallow depths (100-130'). That's a massive waste of a limited resource.

I agree on open ocean dives using trimix is a waste at those depths. However, if I'm inside a wreck at 120 feet, I definitely want a little bit of helium to have an END of 100 feet or possibly shallower. Being impaired when something goes wrong inside a wreck can make for a bad day.

Maybe look into RAID? I've not taken classes from RAID or GUE but just going by what I've read, RAID sounds like a "best of GUE" with some improvements type of agency. Maybe I've got the wrong impression.

I was hoping to go to DEMA this year and talk to the RAID folks about starting a crossover. I really like everything they say. The only complaint (legitimate is my opinion) is that for tech training they only allow for one deco dive per day. If anyone from RAID can confirm/dispute that, please chime in. I find that a bit strange, so I'm skeptical of its veracity, as it came from someone who didn't crossover to RAID for that reason (the reality could be something else).

To be clear, that is not a PADI system. PADI does not endorse any system.

It was created by others and is the most commonly taught system by almost all agencies in the world. PADI does not advocate any specific system. An instructor can teach a PADI class with a backplate and wing system, long hose, bungeed alternate, etc.

Yup. PADI gets beat on a lot for doing things that most of the other mainstream agencies do.

Oh Geez. I'm not a GUE diver, but wish I had started that route initially. I had never even heard of GUE until I took cavern. Alot of what you're saying just comes off silly to those informed about the realities of GUE. Sure there's some elitists, but that's a huge stereotype that gets thrown around. I think alot of it comes from people that wish they were GUE trained. Lack of flexibility is what keeps the GUE standards so high from instructor to instructor and student to student. Use of helium at 100-130 is definitely not silly. I really enjoy my Ginnie dives alot better with something like a 30/30 mix (not a GUE standard mix for 100-130 I know).

I agree with you. In my area, the GUE community have been demonized by some folks that led me to avoid them. That was my biggest mistake. Huge mistake on my part, as it would have saved me so much money. I eventually figured out why.in one case it was sour grapes from a dive shop manager washing out of fundies and others with a Napoleon complex for not being able to teach skills at that level. I encourage for people to take fundies early on, or find an instructor that teaches a course at that level. Propulsion techniques, depth control, trim, etc., are not copyrighted, so anyone can teach that.

I think it can be argued that in real world diving, the OOA diver will go straight for the regulator in the buddy's mouth, despite being taught otherwise. A PADI OW instructor and I were chatting about some of the OOA situations he's encountered, and I asked him which regulator the OOA diver went for in his experience. I did not tell him I dived a long hose, and I know he dived a standard recreational setup. He said, with no hesitation, "They always go for the one in my mouth, always." That kind of settled that for me.

FWIW, at the time, I was thinking of going back to recreational setup, short hoses, secondary donate.

Yup. My only concern as a sidemount diver and uw photographer is that I'll be on my short hose when I'm trying to photograph something and have zero awareness of someone coming up and ripping that out of my mouth. As I dive solo, I won't have a dive buddy who will do this to me, but some random person from the same or even another dive boat.

I think we can all agree we like GUE for the skills. I'm not a fan of no dive computer, but that's another discussion. Nothing stops instructors from the mainstream agencies to teach in a GUE manner, though I'm sure some people will argue otherwise on some nit points.

As far as the equipment used, I think that is a plus, as you stick any two GUE divers who have never met each other, they can easily dive together. The buddy checks for outside of the DIR world can be a bit of a goat rodeo. I saw someone else mentioned it, but I've replied to too many folks to want to go back and add that here.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Sounds to me, though, that if GUE only allows their divers to train with equipment only 10% of the populous dives with, they're already setting them up for failure. Because let's face it, if you're doing any sort of resort diving or anything similar on location probably better than 95% of those divers will have trained using the same type of equipment everyone else is using rather than specialized gear. How many GUE divers are there compared to PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc.? So would it not be better to be proficient in using the typical "rec" style setup as opposed to a specialized setup like GUE, etc.? Imagine you've diving with say a PADI trained OW diver and they run into an OOA incident. Their training will likely have taught them to be looking for a brightly colored octo coming from the sharer's right side, rather than the dark colored primary in the sharer's mouth. Which of course leads into the bigger agencies teaching primary share. But even if they started that now, how many divers are out there that learned to share a secondary air source in an OOA situation?

You forget that a large population of regular PADI style divers use Air2’s, so they are primary donate just like GUE. The only difference is it’s more than likely not on a long hose, and instead of a bungeed second they are fumbling for their inflator, but the principle is there.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Could someone list what gear I need to replace so I can dive with the other "90% of divers in the world"?

 

[stevensamler]

GUE EDGE is your answer. GUE divers check their whole gear setup and dive plan before dive start. If done properly the chance of a non working backup is about zero. Furthermore do GUE divers (at least the ones I know) train regurlarly faillures and procedures including S-drill (= air sharing). It's part of how they dive.

Yes , failures are found before the dive and always wet breath regs and bubble check before descent.