Best agency for learning Tech diving - criteria given - honest :)

[Redshift]

I'm not arguing that. I lived in the UK for several years and was a BSAC member and have certifications from BSAC.
I enjoy the club type organizations and have been member of several clubs.

That doesn't mean I can't criticize a specific point where I think they are very wrong.
They are inconsistent and illogical in some of their argumentation. You said

In the water divers have compete choice of how they dive.

That's just another case of ignoring some issues and hoping that they don't bite them in the arse. Because when mixing people diving with hogarthian config and others who don't, without allowing it to be taught, it will just increase the risks in an OOG situation since there will be divers with different practices and expectations. They teach secondary take. But since they allow divers to use hog loop, this means they have to also teach people that sometimes it's not secondary take, it's ask for gas and receive their primary donation (or, if you are really desperate take that one and not try to find some yellow octopus somewhere else because there won't be any!). You cannot have one without the other. Some may argue that this is taken care in pre-dive briefings. That's very well if the OOG diver is going to ask gas from their buddy, which not always happens. And wouldn't that count as teaching? Because in the end they need to be showed the configuration, how it works and how the procedure is. But they forbid teaching even outside classes as it's stated in their Q&A

Q: Why cannot an Instructor teach the skill outside of a formal Training environment (DTP & SDC)? A: Because to do so would not be consistent with the overall BSAC policy.

And here is another conundrum. Again, they cannot have both things at the same time.
They are just closing their eyes.

 

[KenGordon]

I'm not arguing that. I lived in the UK for several years and was a BSAC member and have certifications from BSAC.
I enjoy the club type organizations and have been member of several clubs.

That doesn't mean I can't criticize a specific point where I think they are very wrong.
They are inconsistent and illogical in some of their argumentation. You said
That's just another case of ignoring some issues and hoping that they don't bite them in the arse. Because when mixing people diving with hogarthian config and others who don't, without allowing it to be taught, it will just increase the risks in an OOG situation since there will be divers with different practices and expectations. They teach secondary take. But since they allow divers to use hog loop, this means they have to also teach people that sometimes it's not secondary take, it's ask for gas and receive their primary donation (or, if you are really desperate take that one and not try to find some yellow octopus somewhere else because there won't be any!). You cannot have one without the other. Some may argue that this is taken care in pre-dive briefings. That's very well if the OOG diver is going to ask gas from their buddy, which not always happens. And wouldn't that count as teaching? Because in the end they need to be showed the configuration, how it works and how the procedure is. But they forbid teaching even outside classes as it's stated in their Q&A
And here is another conundrum. Again, they cannot have both things at the same time.
They are just closing their eyes.

That sounds like an argument that everybody should dive the same config. Unless the one true way is hog looped and taught from day one then surely nobody should dive hog looped?

Alternatively, dive what you like and make sure the people you are diving with understand what to do.

The being snuck up on by an OOG bystander is a spurious argument. Suppose I am on a rebreather and such a person comes for gas. Should we have trained them from day one to know rich is right, figure out the depth, look at the mod markings and chose the gas to take? Probably not. If you get in the water with them then let them know the drill. Who knows how they were trained?

 

[Redshift]

That sounds like an argument that everybody should dive the same config.

On the contrary, if people can dive what they want how can they forbid a configuration in training dives and to be taught even outside courses?

There are several inconsistencies in their argumentation. And what people are doing is not caring if it's during dives and momentarily changing configurations if needed for a course. This isn't a solution, it's sweeping the problems under the rug.

The being snuck up on by an OOG bystander is a spurious argument. Suppose I am on a rebreather and such a person comes for gas. Should we have trained them from day one to know rich is right, figure out the depth, look at the mod markings and chose the gas to take? Probably not. If you get in the water with them then let them know the drill. Who knows how they were trained?

Not by a random bystander, but not all dives are done in a pair. (I even seem to remember someone mentioning that many OOG situations were resolved not by the original buddy, but don't know where it was posted).

You are mentioning yet another situation where secondary take does not work and yet, that is one argument against not teaching the hogarthian and primary donate, that divers are taught to take secondary. Apparently that little detail is forgotten in cases of divers with rebreathers and independents...

 

[Edward3c]

I'm not arguing that. I lived in the UK for several years and was a BSAC member and have certifications from BSAC.
I enjoy the club type organizations and have been member of several clubs.

That doesn't mean I can't criticize a specific point where I think they are very wrong.
They are inconsistent and illogical in some of their argumentation. You said
That's just another case of ignoring some issues and hoping that they don't bite them in the arse. Because when mixing people diving with hogarthian config and others who don't, without allowing it to be taught, it will just increase the risks in an OOG situation since there will be divers with different practices and expectations. They teach secondary take. But since they allow divers to use hog loop, this means they have to also teach people that sometimes it's not secondary take, it's ask for gas and receive their primary donation (or, if you are really desperate take that one and not try to find some yellow octopus somewhere else because there won't be any!). You cannot have one without the other. Some may argue that this is taken care in pre-dive briefings. That's very well if the OOG diver is going to ask gas from their buddy, which not always happens. And wouldn't that count as teaching? Because in the end they need to be showed the configuration, how it works and how the procedure is. But they forbid teaching even outside classes as it's stated in their Q&A
And here is another conundrum. Again, they cannot have both things at the same time.
They are just closing their eyes.

The guidance on diving with a buddy who hasn't received training on the hog-loop configuration is simple. If there is an incident the hog-loop diver may have to prove two things, they:
1. received formal training in the hog-loop configuration, by providing the agencies syllabus on hog-loop diving.
2. ensured their buddy was competent in its use.

Without these two things BSAC's insurers may not pick-up a claim.

Whilst BSAC teach secondary take, any other OOG method may cause problems with the insurers.

 

[Ayisha]

I guess the term hog-loop is here to stay now...

 

[Aquavelvet]

Hog-loop as in long primary hose? First I've ever seen this term.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lorenzoid]

"Hog loop" sounds like something farmers would do here in the South. I'm willing to take the extra one second to write/say "Hogarthian loop." Or maybe "long-hose loop."

Is this "hog loop" term a British thing, perpetuated by the evil BSAC? I have never heard the term here.

 

[KenGordon]

Hogarthian is not a lovely word either.

For reference, in use back 5 years on the well known subversive/metric loving SB:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/hogarthian-diving/332355-stowing-long-hose.html

 

[LiteHedded]

"Hog loop" sounds like something farmers would do here in the South. I'm willing to take the extra one second to write/say "Hogarthian loop." Or maybe "long-hose loop."

Is this "hog loop" term a British thing, perpetuated by the evil BSAC? I have never heard the term here.

first i heard of it was the last time this BSAC nonsense came up.
so i blame them for this abomination

 

[boulderjohn]

first i heard of it was the last time this BSAC nonsense came up.
so i blame them for this abomination

If you look at the initial entry of this issue into this thread and if you look at the original statement from BSAC about their position, I see a possible reason. In both statements, the writers state that what they call "hog looping" is a relatively rare phenomenon.

Here is a portion of the original statement:

BSAC is aware that these techniques are taught and promoted exclusively by one US technical diving agency and favoured by some technical diving instructors from other agencies which, whilst not necessarily promoting it do not proscribe it either.

Here is a portion of post #117 in this thread:

I dive with people trained by a whole host of agencies, many classed as technical. Interestingly very few use the Hog configeration.

As I stated in my initial response, this is news to me. To my knowledge, BSAC is the only agency involved with tech diving that does NOT teach it. It was certainly taught in the 5 agencies with which I have technical diving experience. I have never seen an open circuit technical diver (other than sidemount) doing anything else. I was just certified to teach PADI's tech courses, and they not only have a major section explaining this, that section was part of the course before PADI took over from DSAT years ago.

It seems to me that BSAC needs to have a special name for it to differentiate it from what they teach. For the rest of us, it requires no special name, because it is just a standard part of what we do.