Best agency for learning Tech diving - criteria given - honest :)

[KenGordon]

From the BSAC Position Technical Diving paragraph F specs in the first link you posted, "BSAC Tech does not mandate the use of manifoled twins with isolator".
Really. Rather they promote independent doubles. Which is not that different from sidemounting except the first stages are behind you. Which is IMO less safe than in SM. Headscratcher for sure.

Does not mandate means you get a choice. You can use other configurations. They do not mandate indie twins either. I don't think that means they 'promote' them. You need to look at the actual courses

ADP can be done in wild and crazy configs everyone here would condemn. Actually everyone does it in with manifolded twins or indie twins plus a stage.

Accelerated Decompression Procedures - British Sub-Aqua Club

Twin Set Diver - British Sub-Aqua Club

Technical SDCs - British Sub-Aqua Club

 

[Edward3c]

..., "BSAC Tech does not mandate the use of manifoled twins with isolator". ...

That's because any twin set configuration is acceptable. Unlike some other agencies with mandate a particular set-up.

 

[shoredivr]

Rather than repeat the arguments again you could read the last instalment of this row here:

BSAC Mixed Gas/Hog Loop Alternatives

I think there are 504 posts, the first one saying 'I don't want to start another BSAC hog looping row'.

There are a number of interesting posts from a member of the BSAC Council (an elected board which in theory is in charge) who interprets the links above as meaning that training/instructing while hog looped is allowed for non AS lessons for already qualified Sports Divers diver and above.

Just finished reading that thread and holy smokes it's worse than I thought. By the end there people were saying the 2009 statement against "hog looping" and primary donate was in no way clarified by the later 2010 clarification mentioned earlier...and instructors had varying ideas of what could and could not be taught. Seems a bit of a mess. Thanks for the link.

 

[KenGordon]

Just finished reading that thread and holy smokes it's worse than I thought. By the end there people were saying the 2009 statement against "hog looping" and primary donate was in no way clarified by the later 2010 clarification mentioned earlier...and instructors had varying ideas of what could and could not be taught. Seems a bit of a mess. Thanks for the link.

You probably need some context as to who is who, their agendas and prejudices. Many people were very annoyed in the first place and properly threw their toys out of the pram. Some of those people appear not to want to accept that things are not as bad as they thought. Others on that thread are actually authoritative BSAC people, involved with running it.

Before that thread the generally accepted position was that hog looping was not allowed on any course, as instructor or student. Afterwards that is is not allowed for Ocean Diver and Sport Diver training, but is allowed after that for lessons not involving OOG training. It is banned in the same way a JJ CCR isn't.

A particular point of BSAC training is that instructor cannot add or remove anything from the course. So if the diver tow at a particular level is 25m you cannot insist the student does 50 or let them just do 10. So where the lesson is to take an octopus in an OOG situation then teaching being given one is not allowed. I believe (but only from reading the Internet, I was not there) branch was teaching hog looping as the default and that is what caused the initial row.

In actual diving though none of that matters. People turn up with whatever config they are comfortable with and go diving.

 

[shoredivr]

You probably need some context as to who is who, their agendas and prejudices. Many people were very annoyed in the first place and properly threw their toys out of the pram. Some of those people appear not to want to accept that things are not as bad as they thought. Others on that thread are actually authoritative BSAC people, involved with running it.

Before that thread the generally accepted position was that hog looping was not allowed on any course, as instructor or student. Afterwards that is is not allowed for Ocean Diver and Sport Diver training, but is allowed after that for lessons not involving OOG training. It is banned in the same way a JJ CCR isn't.

I know a bit about the row from reading UK dive boards.
The fact that it is not allowed for OOG training by BSAC, but now can be used for higher than OD and SD training as long as it is not used for OOG training is not comprehensible. It is used precisely for OOG situations. The fact that BSAC prohibits teaching it, yet Edward3c and others for example, complain people learn it from the internet incorrectly, is just such a Catch 22 situation it is unbelievable. All that needs doing is to teach people correctly in class in the first place. It is not rocket science.

 

[KenGordon]

I know a bit about the row from reading UK dive boards.
The fact that it is not allowed for OOG training by BSAC, but now can be used for higher than OD and SD training as long as it is not used for OOG training is not comprehensible. It is used precisely for OOG situations. The fact that BSAC prohibits teaching it, yet Edward3c and others for example, complain people learn it from the internet incorrectly, is just such a Catch 22 situation it is unbelievable. All that needs doing is to teach people correctly in class in the first place. It is not rocket science.

In the BSAC system they teach secondary take. The documents quoted above have some justifications as to why that works. Given that it works the BSAC position is that they teach their system and not some other system. If you want to award a BSAC qualification then you teach it as required.

If I get in the water doing a DL lesson while on a rebreather I have to explain to the student how to get gas from me in the case of them needing it. I do not teach them how to dive a rebreather or how to donate gas when using a rebreather. Similarly if I get in teaching the same lesson, or just some dive, while hog looped the same applies, I don't teach them how to hog loop, how not to get tangled up or what order to put stuff over their head. I tell them to get gas from me.

As for teaching it, BSAC's view is that divers wanting to dive a hog loop get training from someone properly qualified to give it. If an organisation has decided it thinks a thing is a bad way of doing something then what more can anyone ask? Do you want a course entitled "An OOG procedure we think will kill people"?

Given the initial position the rest of it sort of follows.

All of this is rather a shame. The training ladder and materials available from BSAC are very good, people get trained by people they are likely to dive with and the culture is quite different to commercial operations. It really is diving for divers rather than diving for shareholders.

 

[Redshift]

I think BSAC has handled this situation badly from the start.
It came out with a "study" where they showed it was dangerous to wear this configuration and where they also threw in 'primary take', which is a different thing and I'm not aware any agency teaches it.

They allow divers to use it if they have learned it somewhere else, even during training dives, if they don't involve gas sharing exercises. How does that work in preparing a diver for 'real life'? They allow them to use their usual hogarthian configuration, but not to practice air sharing with it, even when knowing it will be the configuration they will use after the course. Does that make anyone safer?! And if there are several gas sharing exercises, as it happens in some tech courses, then the divers must change for the duration of the course. That's why people told the OP to stay clear of BSAC for tech diving courses. And no matter how many clarifications they issue, this still stands. They were forced to these clarifications because their initial statement basically said that this configuration was dangerous and didn't work. Of course they suffered a lot of abuse.

They still try to come up with excuses that don't work well. They say they never teach primary donate during basic levels and want to remain consistent - 1st they could allow teaching primary donate (could even do some workshops about it for instructors); 2nd they also don't teach trimix in basic levels, do they? They also say that this configuration only works with manifolded twinsets, which they don't require for their divers - it works with other configurations and not forcing a configuration is very different from forbidding something to be taught! They ignore the fact that when using independents, it may happen that when a diver is asked for gas they are actually breathing from the long hose at that time and will have to donate it (unless they have two long hoses!).

They are ignoring the big elephant in the room and pretending it doesn't exist.

 

[Oldbear]

In the BSAC system they teach secondary take. The documents quoted above have some justifications as to why that works. Given that it works the BSAC position is that they teach their system and not some other system. If you want to award a BSAC qualification then you teach it as required.

If I get in the water doing a DL lesson while on a rebreather I have to explain to the student how to get gas from me in the case of them needing it. I do not teach them how to dive a rebreather or how to donate gas when using a rebreather. Similarly if I get in teaching the same lesson, or just some dive, while hog looped the same applies, I don't teach them how to hog loop, how not to get tangled up or what order to put stuff over their head. I tell them to get gas from me.

As for teaching it, BSAC's view is that divers wanting to dive a hog loop get training from someone properly qualified to give it. If an organisation has decided it thinks a thing is a bad way of doing something then what more can anyone ask? Do you want a course entitled "An OOG procedure we think will kill people"?

Given the initial position the rest of it sort of follows.

All of this is rather a shame. The training ladder and materials available from BSAC are very good, people get trained by people they are likely to dive with and the culture is quite different to commercial operations. It really is diving for divers rather than diving for shareholders.

In late 2011 and early 2012 I joined a BSAC club in Kuwait. I went through their Dive Leaders course and thoroughly enjoyed the course. Prior the the BSAC course all my courses were PADI. I have to agree with Ken's statement that in BSAC (at least from my experience) you are trained by divers that you are likely to dive with. My training officer was one of the most knowledgable and experienced divers I have had the pleasure of diving with and learning from. I am happy that PADI has incorporated Dive Planning to the level that they have in the updated Open Water course, but it was with Kuwait BSAC's Brian Darvell that I first really learned to plan a recreational dive similar to the detail that tech divers go thru.

 

[KenGordon]

I think BSAC has handled this situation badly from the start.

I don't think you will find many people arguing with that. On the other hand it really doesn't matter except for giving Internet divers stones to throw at BSAC. In the water divers have compete choice of how they dive.

The point about BSAC is that it is a club, it is (sort of) run by its members. It gives people other people to dive and train with. In the UK going diving generally involves getting enough people together to charter a boat and a certain amount of organisation. Thus clubs are generally a good way to do it. Whether those divers are hog looped or not is less important than whether or not hot chocolate is available between dives.

 

[rongoodman]

I don't think you will find many people arguing with that. On the other hand it really doesn't matter except for giving Internet divers stones to throw at BSAC. In the water divers have compete choice of how they dive.

The point about BSAC is that it is a club, it is (sort of) run by its members. It gives people other people to dive and train with. In the UK going diving generally involves getting enough people together to charter a boat and a certain amount of organisation. Thus clubs are generally a good way to do it. Whether those divers are hog looped or not is less important than whether or not hot chocolate is available between dives.

All the history aside, though, I still feel perfectly comfortable in warning a new student away from BSAC technical training because of their position on hog loop/primary donate, and would do it again if anyone asks.