Berating an "Instructor" on a dive boat. How should I have handled differently?

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WOW!!! I am impressed. May I kiss your ring?

No ring...no training to get a ring :p

It's not as it sounds. UK cave diving doesn't work under official instruction you get a card at the end of. You do eventually get your membership upgraded from trainee to qualified. This might take a year or two. Though the additional benefits this brings with it is absolutely minimal.


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Apologies for the snark. I thought you were one of our Florida cave divers who "didn't need any training". Their dead stinking bodies get pulled from caves with some regularity.
 
It IS both inconsiderate and potentially unsafe to run line in such a way as to make it easy for novice divers to get tangled in it. When, for example, we do classes or practice in our local mudhole with reels, we are very careful to run our lines close to the bottom and as much as possible, in areas of the site where new divers are unlikely to go.

AJ, I think it's been too long since you had anything to do with novice divers for you to remember how poor their situational awareness often is, and how little they have in the way of resources to deal with trouble. It's more than most should be doing to be diving through even a sanitized wreck, but to get entangled in someone's line while doing so might well provoke panic, depending on the diver.

I think the OP was right to be distressed at what was done. And having been guilty on more occasions than I can count, of saying something about someone when they were standing right behind me, I also understand finding yourself in that situation and trying to figure out how to salvage it.

So the solution is to consider cutting the line (so now it's flapping in the breeze) then to ream the guy on the boat?

It sounds to me like OP isn't much more than a novice diver anyways but thinks he's the boss, then came on here to validation of his actions. Nope.
 
So the solution is to consider cutting the line (so now it's flapping in the breeze) then to ream the guy on the boat?

It sounds to me like OP isn't much more than a novice diver anyways but thinks he's the boss, then came on here to validation of his actions. Nope.

AJ, He didnt really take any actions to validate...

Yes he considered cutting the line, which would get the crap beat out of him on any boat i have been on, but face it, we have all had ideas pop into our heads during dives that made no sense.

Im not saying this guy is right or wrong, but you seem to be pretty pissed of at him. Relax. This guy is on vacation, and you will never have to dive with him...ever.
 
AJ, He didnt really take any actions to validate...

Yes he considered cutting the line, which would get the crap beat out of him on any boat i have been on, but face it, we have all had ideas pop into our heads during dives that made no sense.

Im not saying this guy is right or wrong, but you seem to be pretty pissed of at him. Relax. This guy is on vacation, and you will never have to dive with him...ever.

By his own title of the post... He berated an instructor on a charter. It wasn't even his instructor.

If you are gonna act like the scuba police and then look for remarks on an online forum... Stand by to get exactly what you asked for.

I've dove the "wreck treck" many times. IIRC Tony Land made a video of it, zooming around on a Magnus. http://youtu.be/kzZiKKBgEjI

It is one of the 4 that compose the wreck trek and is the most popular of the 4. As described, it's wide open. I'm actually quite amused that this particular wreck has generated this many posts.

Look out folks, the Skooba Police are everywhere.
 
At that point, I'm stunned. . . . I don't say another word. I simply look at him for a second and turn back around to my buddy and exit that conversation. . . . what would you have done?
You did the proper thing at that point - exited the conversation. I would have probably exited even earlier.

Reading your account of what he did - running a line across an opening that was being actively used by other divers - I conclude that the Instructor was a clueless idiot who only sees the world as it revolves around him. In fairness, we have only one description, and one side, of the story. It was inconsiderate of him to run a line where he apparently did. But, inconsiderate behavior is so common that it is hard to say that this particular instance was egregious.

I 'feel your pain' with regard to lines. Our local training quarry has experienced a proliferation of lines - of all thicknesses, colors, materials, and degree of tension - over the years, When I started diving there 12 years ago, there were a few lines connecting specific underwater objects. Now, swimming in the quarry reminds me of the scene from the Sean Connery movie, Entrapment, where Catherine Zeta-Jones has to navigate through a maze of laser beams to steal a diamond. I think many of the placements are both unnecessary and inconsiderate - they get in the way. But, I am also not about to cut them, with one exception - I scootered into, and became tangled in, a nearly invisible clear monofilament line that somebody had run across a large open area,

Last summer, I was teaching an AOW class in this quarry, which is not know for great visibility but was still remarkably clear for the time of year, and on the afternoon of second day I started hearing some serious 'thump, thump, thump' sounds while we were u/w working on buoyancy. Then, as we were swimming over to use a particular line - this is right in the middle of one of the most active OW training areas of the quarry - I swim into a cloud of sand and silt, while noticing that the thumping is getting louder. Turns out, some divers were practicing line-following drills in silt-out conditions, and creating the silt-out by pounding the bottom with a baseball base. To me, that was grossly inconsiderate because it necessarily interfered with the activities, and diving enjoyment, of a lot of other divers who had also paid to use the quarry. It was also completely unnecessary. These guys could have gone to one of the infrequently used, more remote, areas of the quarry, run some lines, and conducted their drills without bothering others. But, since the world apparently revolved around them, and they would have had to swim a bit to get to the more remote areas, they didn't. As much as I instinctively wanted to play Mike Nelson, and cut some second stage hoses, I didn't. I didn't even say anything to them afterward. It is part of living in a free society.
 
I'd like to address a few things. 1) I'm not looking for vindication here. I know I can get heated and I also know I'm not always right. 2) I wouldn't consider myself a novice (you all might) but I've been diving for over a decade and cut my teeth on NJ wrecks (RJP, my overhead training came from years of diving with good folks like you crewing on Gypsy and other NYNJ boats). 3) Safety to myself and others in the water at the same time is a paramount concern while diving. Any fleeting thoughts I had or reactions were driven by what I perceived as a danger to real newbies who probably don't know enough to avoid the situation in the first place. 4) Sometimes you're on vacation with family and just need to get wet- you hitch a ride from a boat that has spots left. When the choice is dive off a less than ideal boat or don't dive at all... Well, that's not really a choice in my mind. To dive or not to dive... I'm getting wet.


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OK, I'll toss in my 2 psi ... as someone who has spent so much time with his foot in his mouth it's shrivelled from the spit ...

First thing ... if you're going to "berate" an instructor, regardless of the reason, don't do it in front of their student ... not if you have any interest at all in a constructive outcome. Pull them aside and speak your concerns to them privately. Even then, your voice and tone probably sounded way more friendly to you than it did to him ... and that's a great way to put somebody on the defensive and not accomplish a thing except to have them come away from it thinking less of you than you probably want people to. I've found (through hard experience) that the best approach when you see someone doing something you consider potentially dangerous is to mention you noticed it and ask them why they did it that way. Give them a chance to respond, and if it appears they're interested in a dialogue, follow it up with "do you mind if I give you some advice?" Most divers are genuinely interested in doing the right thing, and if you handle it right you might actually accomplish something. If, on the other hand, they respond to your approach with anything less than interest, disengage in the conversation ... no matter what you say it's doubtful to accomplish anything.

Second thing ... never ... EVER ... even contemplate cutting someone else's line, unless there's already someone entangled in it and that's the only way you can get them loose. Here's a thought ... see if you can reroute it a bit more out of the way. I've run into that situation in caves before ... and if a line's that badly run there's usually enough slack to move it off to the side and slip it behind something. That leaves a continuous line out for the person who put it there, and removes the hazard for everyone else.

What it boils down to here is you set yourself up for a confrontation ... and it could easily have gotten more out of hand than what you described. Your choice of words in the title suggests that's what you were looking for ... even if it wasn't intentional. "Berating" someone will rarely, if ever, produce a positive outcome. A friendly query or a private conversation ... away from this instructor's student ... would have a much higher chance for you to get a constructive response to your concern ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I wouldn't consider myself a novice (you all might) but I've been diving for over a decade and cut my teeth on NJ wrecks (RJP, my overhead training came from years of diving with good folks like you crewing on Gypsy and other NYNJ boats).

Hence my inclusion of a ":D" in my reply.

PS - that being said, there are a great many NE wreck divers who believe "I've been doing this for 10 years and haven't killed myself yet" is an adequate substitute for actual training. Not saying you're one of them... but you know they're out there on every charter!
 
Hence my inclusion of a ":D" in my reply.

PS - that being said, there are a great many NE wreck divers who believe "I've been doing this for 10 years and haven't killed myself yet" is an adequate substitute for actual training. Not saying you're one of them... but you know they're out there on every charter!


So how many years of diving DOES substitute for "actual" training?

I've seen some "actually trained" divers who scared the heck out of me..
 
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