Berating an "Instructor" on a dive boat. How should I have handled differently?

[flots am]

Newbies don't belong inside a wreck without a Wreck Diver certification...

Or with one, either.

While I can't speak for PADI's class, the big takeaway from the SSI "Wreck Diver" class is how easy it is to die in one, and to stay the hell out of anything that isn't obviously wide-open with easy access to the surface.

There's no "Open Water" specialty class that teaches safe overhead diving.

flots.

 

[KD8NPB]

Or with one, either.

While I can't speak for PADI's class, the big takeaway from the SSI "Wreck Diver" class is how easy it is to die in one, and to stay the hell out of anything that isn't obviously wide-open with easy access to the surface.

There's no "Open Water" specialty class that teaches safe overhead diving.

flots.

PADI if I remember correctly:
For OW certified wreck divers, you have to stay within 60 linear feet of where you entered. So if the wreck is 30 ft deep, you can penetrate 30 feet in to the wreck. You must stay in the light zone.

I am not familiar with the wreck ln question and as a general rule I agree with you. However, not all overheads are created equal and, assuming they are already at least OW, there are situations where I might go through one with a fairly new diver.

-Local quarry has a bus. Side and front doors are off. Seats are all gone. There is no silt. It is technically an overhead environment. If they want to swim through it we will do so.

It's a slippery slope that I personally do not encourage. Then again, I also think people who dive deeper than 60 ft without a minimum 30 cf redundant gas supply are not smart people.

Training guidelines are usually written in blood from the mistakes of others.

 

[Steve_C]

Training guidelines are usually written in blood from the mistakes of others.

I agree completely that when teaching a course you should know and follow guidelines for a number of reasons.

I was talking about recreational diving with insta- or regular buddies in familiar waters.

But then I am not a smart diver since I am usually below 60 ft and my pony is only 19 cf.

 

[KD8NPB]

I agree completely that when teaching a course you should know and follow guidelines for a number of reasons.

I was talking about recreational diving with insta- or regular buddies in familiar waters.

But then I am not a smart diver since I am usually below 60 ft and my pony is only 19 cf.

You're at least 63% smarter than divers who dive with no redundant air supply!

 

[Bob DBF]

If you want to teach someone something, especially if they think they already know it, then you need a different skill set.

R..

If someone tells me they know it already, my tact is to just say "I'll have to try it that way sometime" then go back to having a good time with my mates, and avoiding discussing the proclivities of anyone on the boat.



Bob
------------------------------
There are more ways than one to skin a cat, however the cat never likes it.

 

[Scott]

PADI if I remember correctly:
For OW certified wreck divers, you have to stay within 60 linear feet of where you entered. So if the wreck is 30 ft deep, you can penetrate 30 feet in to the wreck. You must stay in the light zone.

The PADI Wreck course requires a minimum of AOW, ok Adventure Diver, to take the course.
The lineal distance is 130 feet, thirds, no single file restrictions and nothing beyond the light zone.

 

[boulderjohn]

We have been through this all a lot in recent threads.

Although I do not know the wreck referenced in this thread, I know many of the wrecks in that area. They are mostly small, with wide open areas that are easily accessed, have no possibility of getting lost, and can be exited in seconds in an emergency. Thousands of OW divers go through them every year. I don't believe there has ever been an incident on one related to the safety of the dive experience.

Contrary to what people think, there is no "rule" against this. First of all, neither PADI nor any other agency has the power to enforce such a rule upon a dive operation. These dive operators make their livings taking people to these wrecks, and if an agency were to make such a rule, the operator would switch agencies rather than go out of business--customers would no longer use their services if they refused to go to these wrecks. Divers are cautioned by dive agencies to dive within the limits of their training and experience, but that is a judgment decision. When you get beyond these basic kinds of wrecks in terms of challenge, like the Spiegel Grove, dive operators impose heir own restrictions on required levels of training.

PADI has approved a distinctive specialty class called "Understanding Overhead Environments." The course does not teach techniques for diving overheads. It instead teaches about the different kinds of overhead environments and the different levels of danger they entail. It teaches what kind of training is needed to access them safely as one moves up the ladder of difficulty and danger. The course teaches that some overhead environments--ones with an easy, quick egress that will allow a quick ascent in case of emergency--are acceptable for recreational divers with no special training.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

We have been through this all a lot in recent threads.

Although I do not know the wreck referenced in this thread, I know many of the wrecks in that area. They are mostly small, with wide open areas that are easily accessed, have no possibility of getting lost, and can be exited in seconds in an emergency. Thousands of OW divers go through them every year. I don't believe there has ever been an incident on one related to the safety of the dive experience.

Contrary to what people think, there is no "rule" against this. First of all, neither PADI nor any other agency has the power to enforce such a rule upon a dive operation. These dive operators make their livings taking people to these wrecks, and if an agency were to make such a rule, the operator would switch agencies rather than go out of business--customers would no longer use their services if they refused to go to these wrecks. Divers are cautioned by dive agencies to dive within the limits of their training and experience, but that is a judgment decision. When you get beyond these basic kinds of wrecks in terms of challenge, like the Spiegel Grove, dive operators impose heir own restrictions on required levels of training.

PADI has approved a distinctive specialty class called "Understanding Overhead Environments." The course does not teach techniques for diving overheads. It instead teaches about the different kinds of overhead environments and the different levels of danger they entail. It teaches what kind of training is needed to access them safely as one moves up the ladder of difficulty and danger. The course teaches that some overhead environments--ones with an easy, quick egress that will allow a quick ascent in case of emergency--are acceptable for recreational divers with no special training.

Does PADI require a redundant scuba system for this type of overhead diving?

 

[The Chairman]

It's important for instructors to set the right example at all times. If you tie off on a wreck, do it by the book. There's no need to add additional entanglements that might HAVE to be cut if it catches someone. There are a number of instructor wanna-bes who think they got game when they only have lame. It's upsetting.

From the reading of your post, I get the idea you had no idea he was an instructor at the beginning of the conversation. It was only later that it became evident. I am not the Scuba Police. I don't even have a badge. If I see something potentially unsafe, I'll usually let the boat staff know about it and let them deal with it. That's their job and on their boat they ARE the Scuba police. It doesn't matter if they are an instructor or not, when the captain talks to you, you shut up and listen.

FWIW, cutting a line should be a punishable offense. I'm glad you thought better of that.

 

[agilis]

I would not bet on it. My experience has been that instructors who teach it right usually do it right.

I also kept my mouth shut in Jules where a NJ wreck diving instructor had a scuba review student who had buoyancy problems. She would get down and then float up. He kept putting more and more and more weight on her.

Must be something defective about people from New Jersey. A few years ago an instructor up here killed a student in 15 feet of water by continuously clipping on extra weights, one right over the weight belt buckle, because the student, on his first open water dive, was having the same kind of buoyancy problem. Currents under a small bridge and some old fishing line seem to have dislodged his second stage, and he died in a few seconds. About 10 divers (students) were within a few yards of him.