Are you a stroke?

[Uncle Pug]

I dislike pejorative terms...
Name calling is just not productive....

However unfortunate it is that terms such as *stroke* become a part of our vocabulary they are a fact of life.

*Stroke* is between the ears.... no matter what the gear configuration, training level, diving accompishments, ect.

That said several things bother me with this thread:

I take offense with Allen's trashing religion.... you have demonstrated the typical insensitivity of those who you seek to denigrate with your little polemic.... in doing so you are no different than those you rail against.

I am troubled by the unthinking attitude of those who classify themselves as *strokes* without understanding what that term has come to mean. Folks it is not a badge of honor! I personally don't like to spend time with stupid, obnoxious people (especially when diving) and for them to proudly label themselves with that term doesn't make me desire their company more....
BTW I doubt that many of the folks on this board really are *strokes* though some, I am sure, are.

It is one thing to do stupid things because you have never been shown a better way and quite another to defended your stupidity as acceptable and even brag about it and try to encourage others to admire and follow your stupidity.

To me a *stroke* is a stupid, arrogant, obnoxious person who does stupid things even though a better way has been pointed out and brags about his stupidity (it is almost universally a guy -but not always) as though it were something to be admired.

Please don't call yourself a *stroke* .....
You really don't need too...
If you are a *stroke* we will already know it before you unload your gear...
And we will stay far away from you...
For your dangerous attitude is driven by a psycological need that needs to be addressed professionally on the surface....
Not underwater by us.

 

[jimholcomb]

...that the "anti-DIR" coalition uses the word "stroke" more than the DIR advocates. I rarely read or hear anyone in the mainstream call anyone a stroke. I seem to read and hear it more out of other people calling themselves one.

As a technical diver, I read everything I possibly can about anything diving related. I like to think of myself as educated enough to come to the correct decisions.

I think what bothers me the most is that alot of people just don't care and would rather argue than research the issue. It may stem from a person just got through spend big $$$$$$$$$ on crap gear and don't want to hear it or it may stem from being "set in one's ways".

I see a lot of "know it all" attitudes out of the newly annointed instructors and divemasters as well. My cave diving buddy and I were diving wrecks off NC a few months ago. We were friendly to the others on the boat - and answered anything anyone asked about our diving and configuration. Meanwhile we got antagonism out of the folks who had just bought new gear and their "leaders". I learned that day what "farm animal stupidity" meant. It's not those folks who just hadn't been exposed. It's those who conscously make the decision to ignore or argue because they think they already know it all and refuse to even consider that there MIGHT be a safer way to dive.

I see the same thing on a lot of these forums. You can do a search on members posts when DIR is being discussed and tell which members are truly interested and those that apparently got spanked or their feelings hurt somewhere down the line and just want to argue for what ever the reason. And then there are those who argue to impress others.

Discussions based on personal experiences are much more productive.

 

[The Chairman]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug
*Stroke* is between the ears.... no matter what the gear configuration, training level, diving accompishments, ect.

And that is true on both sides of the DIR issue. No one likes to be labeled, discreetly or otherwise. I believe that is why so many DIR advocates become defensive... it is also why we strokes become defensive as well. No, it’s not the soft spoken Uncle Pugs that give the "movement" a bad rap... it's your movement's "lighten rods".

When you show us a "better way" and we do not agree with you, it's really not because we are stupid. We were presented with the same facts and have chosen a different path. Sometimes this is just so hard to accept, but your reasons for diving DIR are not the only valid reasons in the sea. Yours is not the only light to follow... there are many, many more in the universe. Blue ones might appeal to you, while I prefer red ones. Does my preference make me stupid, or even ill-advised? I think not.

The problem for us is that your belief is so rigid, that you can not accept other ways of diving as being legitimate. You talk about our "crap gear" and "defending our stupidity" and you may not realize just how condescending that is. You tell us in no uncertain terms that we don't know sh## from shinola, and then you wonder why we dismiss you out of hand. It's really not our fault that your attitude makes us avoid trying out DIR. We simply do not want to develop that kind of attitude in ourselves. Respect is reciprocated by respect, and unfortunately, acrimony is reciprocated in much the same way.

So, when I call myself a stroke, it is a badge of honor. It’s a badge that says I endure the ridicule and scorn of an elitist few who think their way is "Doing it Right". It’s a badge that says I refuse to foster that same elitist attitude within myself, so I can remain open to those things that will improve MY STYLE OF DIVING. It is a badge that allows you to dive in a manner that is best for you, and yet proclaims that I will dive in a manner that is best for me. It’s simply my way of telling you that I find your exclusionary attitude to be somewhat humorous. After all, we did not invent rule #1.

I am not writing this NOT out of bitterness or hatred, but out of a belief that sometimes you guys just don’t comprehend why there is so much animosity directed towards you. Uncle Pug, I have found you to be the most articulate and soft spoken of ALL of the DIR devotees that I have had occasion to meet. In that, you are quite unique! Still, sometimes, those underlying attitudes come through which is so obvious to me, but I don’t think you even see it. Of course, I could be wrong and you really enjoy it, but I don’t think so. I honestly believe that you do not follow an unreasoned dogma, but have indeed thought things out. One day I may get to visit you in the cold NW and really see what YOUR style of DIR is about...

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by NetDoc
And that is true on both sides of the DIR issue. No one likes to be labeled, discreetly or otherwise.

Pete, let me assure you that I was not trying to descreetly label you or anyone else a *stroke* or stupid....

You have a definition of *stroke* that is very different from mine...
When I tried to explain to you what my definition was...
You applied the definition to yourself...
I did not call you or anyone else stupid...
I defined *strokery* as persistent stupidity...
You defined yourself as a stroke and proud of it...
I tried to explain why I don't like that....

I hate to belabor the point as it might just open the door for further misunderstanding... but:

I don't like it when people call others *stroke* for inconsequential equipment and proceedural differences. I do not like it when people call themselves *stroke* to prove some kind of point without stopping to think about the unfortunate fact that there are true *strokes* out there. People who are stupid and who do dangerous things. People you would never consider diving with because even if you didn't want to use the word *stroke* you would still recognize them for what they are and avoid them.

WKPP has its standards and rule number one for good reason....
For the kind of diving they do... their rules rule...
I have my standards and am careful what kind of diving I do with whom...
In all honesty I'll bet you do too.

 

[WYDT]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper


I don't particulary care for the term either. I don't use it in a mean or derogatory way -- ever.

I advocate DIR because it has worked superbly for me and a lot of others I know. It makes sense to me, and I have yet to experience any flaws of the DIR philosophy in the diving I've done (deep wrecks, ice diving, tropical reefs, etc.). I don't care if anyone adopts DIR based on anything I say, but I do hope they would consider it so they may find a greater degree of enjoyment and safety in their diving.

I won't do an advanced dive with someone who doesn't share my philosophy and gear configuration. I just won't dive. That said, if anyone wants to come up here and dive with da Yooper on some of HIS fantastic recreational level wrecks, I'll be happy to give ya'll a tour!



Mike

Nice! Exactly the way I feel and couldn't have said it any better.

DSAO!

 

[jimholcomb]

Originally posted by NetDoc


And that is true on both sides of the DIR issue. No one likes to be labeled, discreetly or otherwise. I believe that is why so many DIR advocates become defensive... it is also why we strokes become defensive as well. No, it’s not the soft spoken Uncle Pugs that give the "movement" a bad rap... it's your movement's "lighten rods".

When you show us a "better way" and we do not agree with you, it's really not because we are stupid. We were presented with the same facts and have chosen a different path. Sometimes this is just so hard to accept, but your reasons for diving DIR are not the only valid reasons in the sea. Yours is not the only light to follow... there are many, many more in the universe. Blue ones might appeal to you, while I prefer red ones. Does my preference make me stupid, or even ill-advised? I think not.

The problem for us is that your belief is so rigid, that you can not accept other ways of diving as being legitimate. You talk about our "crap gear" and "defending our stupidity" and you may not realize just how condescending that is. You tell us in no uncertain terms that we don't know sh## from shinola, and then you wonder why we dismiss you out of hand. It's really not our fault that your attitude makes us avoid trying out DIR. We simply do not want to develop that kind of attitude in ourselves. Respect is reciprocated by respect, and unfortunately, acrimony is reciprocated in much the same way.

So, when I call myself a stroke, it is a badge of honor. It’s a badge that says I endure the ridicule and scorn of an elitist few who think their way is "Doing it Right". It’s a badge that says I refuse to foster that same elitist attitude within myself, so I can remain open to those things that will improve MY STYLE OF DIVING. It is a badge that allows you to dive in a manner that is best for you, and yet proclaims that I will dive in a manner that is best for me. It’s simply my way of telling you that I find your exclusionary attitude to be somewhat humorous. After all, we did not invent rule #1.

I am not writing this NOT out of bitterness or hatred, but out of a belief that sometimes you guys just don’t comprehend why there is so much animosity directed towards you. Uncle Pug, I have found you to be the most articulate and soft spoken of ALL of the DIR devotees that I have had occasion to meet. In that, you are quite unique! Still, sometimes, those underlying attitudes come through which is so obvious to me, but I don’t think you even see it. Of course, I could be wrong and you really enjoy it, but I don’t think so. I honestly believe that you do not follow an unreasoned dogma, but have indeed thought things out. One day I may get to visit you in the cold NW and really see what YOUR style of DIR is about...

This is what I'm talking about. You didn't even read my first post on the issue. If you feel being a "stroke" is a badge of honor then so be it. If you are going to let your attitude be determined by the very "lightning rods" you dislike then so be it. And yes, DIR is somewhat exclusionary - but it comes down to the "personal preferences" of a diver. I won't dive with a moron and I don't think you will either. I don't dive with divers beyond their training and don't think you will either. I don't dive with divers not properly eqiupped and I don't think you will either. We are ALL exclusionary to some point.

It is none of my business how you dive. I don't try to "preach the gospel" to anyone. What irritates me is the venom which spews out of the mouths of anti-DIR divers. And the worst part about it, is they don't argue the philosophy to any extent - they whine about the attitudes.

Time for everyone to get off the playground. Educated divers will research the different approaches and come to the conclusion of what's right for them. And, generally, those who think similiarly will dive together.

 

[The Chairman]

You have assumed a lot... I read all your posts in this thread and you were doing OK until you made this inflammatory statement:

Originally posted by Jimholcomb
It may stem from a person just got through spend big $$$$$$$$$ on crap gear

I tried to help you understand why there is so much anger among non-DIR. That you wouldn't hear it and even took it as a personal attack really does not surprise me. Your attitude is speaking so loud that I really can't hear what you are saying.

It is written that you will know them by their fruit. While the physical accomplishments of DIR/GUE may be phenomenal, I will not take the risk of becoming like them. My character is more important than the way I dive. I definitely don't want to bear the fruit of arrogance, contempt and belittling others.

And now you want me to leave the playground? As you wish.

 

[jimholcomb]

Originally posted by NetDoc
You have assumed a lot... I read all your posts in this thread and you were doing OK until you made this inflammatory statement:


I tried to help you understand why there is so much anger among non-DIR. That you wouldn't hear it and even took it as a personal attack really does not surprise me. Your attitude is speaking so loud that I really can't hear what you are saying.

It is written that you will know them by their fruit. While the physical accomplishments of DIR/GUE may be phenomenal, I will not take the risk of becoming like them. My character is more important than the way I dive. I definitely don't want to bear the fruit of arrogance, contempt and belittling others.

And now you want me to leave the playground? As you wish.

The remark about "big $$$$$ on crap gear" was not intended to insult non-DIR divers. It was a general statement, used to describe someone who possibly may have spent more than they needed to on gear that's not appropriate for the dive at hand.

My attitude has been non-confrontational until my last post. In assuming too much, I assumed that you read the definition I and most DIR divers hold for "stroke". You then posted that that label was a "badge of honor" because you don't like some folks. That had me assuming you didn't read it. I apologize if I'm wrong.

The playground crack was intended to emphasize the need to discuss the issues without all the playground bickering and spitting on one or another because of a couple "bullys" in each camp.

"arrogance, contempt, and belittling others"???? Read again.

And yes, you will know them by the fruit they bear.

 

[omar]

jim,

this is a thread where pete got his first exposure to DIR and the resulting evolution of his opinion.

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1434

omar

 

[The Chairman]

and I should have given a dive report on the subsequent "dive" that month. It was my first real taste of a "DIR-nazi" as one DIR devotee put it. It wasn't bad enough that I should just chuck my gear into the St John's, but this was the same guy who helped me pick a lot of it out a year earlier. And he did tell me he "wasn't allowed" to dive with me. I didn't ask a second time.

And Omar... thanks for the read. It's good to see where you came from sometimes.