Are we charging enough?

[Uncle Pug]

Last night after another couple of hours of our GUE instructor's time (all on the original nickel) he asked me,

"Are we charging enough for Tech ?"

I said,

"No.... not for the amount of your time we are buying."

(His classes run far beyond the syllabus and you have this continuing access to his time.)

He said,

"Well it is nothing to the guy in x making $$$$$ but what about the guy in xxxxx making $."

I understand where he is coming from...
He travels abroad a lot teaching and wants to make these classes accessible... but this adds to the expense and he needs to pay his bills...


So I have several questions for you that are coming from completely different directions so try to use the numbers in answering:

1. Did you pay too little, too much, just enough for your training?

2. What do you think of an instructor/agency that is concerned about people being able to afford the classes (from other than a marketing standpoint)?

3. How would you advise this instructor in balancing the financial realities of staying in business with the desire to make instruction available to those in other countries with meager resources?

BTW I don't live in x and make $$$$$

 

[Friggincold]

Pug,
Interesting you should ask. I have always thought that dive training was being given away. Just look at the instructor turn over.( I was told avg life of an instructor is 3 years).
The industry has given it away to make money selling gear. A plumber makes more per hour than a dive instructor. The plumber doesn't have your life in his hands....my $.02

1 The training I have received thru the years was inexpensive compared to the time and equipment the instructor put into it. Some of my training has been priceless. But at the same time I have gone thru life eating alot of peanut butter and jelly to afford training and gear.

2 I think it is comendable that he is concerned about good quality diver education. Although Tech is not for the masses. If someone has a need to tech train they will come up with the money to do it. When you reach tech level training it's serious stuff. It is a priority in that divers training. They'll eat peanut butter and jelly to afford the training if they have to.

3 He cannot afford to "give the instruction away" he has to do it at a margin so he can "afford" to continue to do it. He has to make a reasonable profit and a living. As I said before, if they have the need, they will find the financing.

Now my question: As a professional educator how much should an instructor make per hour?

BTW I heard you do live in xx and make even more$$$$$$$$$$$
Friggincold:cold:

 

[VTWarrenG]

I thought that the people in XXX DO make $$$.

Oh, wait... wrong industry. Sorry.

- Warren

 

[Rick L]

The plumber doesn't have your life in his hands....my $.02

Um I think thats a bad example!!
A lot of plumbing is venting. So you are putting yours
and your familys life in a plumbers hands!! Plumbers and
pipefitters set up those 3500 psi compressors you use to fill your tanks. Hmm sorry being a pipefitter and sprinklerfitter that hurt
(hmm bad fire supression systems couldn't hurt anyone )
sorry it got to me my $.02 Rick L

 

[Friggincold]

Ok I agree BAD example;-0
Friggincold

 

[Lost Yooper]

I don't know how instructors do it. I know from doing a bit of carpentry on the side, that I have to charge inexcess of $40/hr to cover all of my expenses and to allow me a bit of profit. I look at it from this point of view: I may not work often, but when I work, I'm actually going to make money and profit. The key to this is salesmanship. You have to sell yourself and your product as being worth the money. If you're working, directly or indirectly, you should be making money.
This is where a lot of carpenters (divers/instructors?) come up short when going into business. They may be excellant at what they do, but don't have an understanding of business and salesmanship. If I were going to be a full-time instructor (like Andrew) I would approach it like a contractor/carpenter (since this is what I know). I would charge the rate I need to cover expenses, my salary, and some profit and then sell myself to the world. Bidding against others is more of a waste of time than anything because it leads to short changing yourself. Don't work for people who can't/won't afford you. It's a tough deal, but it can be done with scuba instruction, I think.
A good carpenter who knows business and salesmanship will sell quality and only work when he can make money. Eventually (if he does a quality job and can stay above water), he will find himself being sold by word of mouth and call backs. As soon as he short changes himself, he'll begin to lose money and will end up either broke or working for someone else.

The trick is salesmanship, personality, business sense, and quality.

Mike

 

[MikeS]

1. The amount I am paying for training is a small part of the "total cost of ownership," of making SCUBA a hobby, so far about 10 percent. What is important is the total cost, not just the training. I waited a long time to be able to do what I concider DIR which includes buying my own equipment.

2. The concept of any instructor teaching for "the money" makes me nervous. I think my instructor does it because he loves it, if he had to pay to teach it he probably would! I like the idea that he has a “day time job” and does this cause he likes it, not because he needs the money.

3. I would advise him; “get a day time job and if you really love it, teach when and where you can.” Perhaps this sounds extreem but I waited many years till I could afford this as a hobby and take exception with the concept that I should pay to subsidize the training of others.

I also think that the idea that a scuba diving instructor is “taking responsibility for your life” is over-played. What does a CPR instructor make, or a drivers education instructor? Or how about a teacher or police officer? But I ramble on.

Mike

 

[AquaTec]

So I have three maybe four jobs
I am a firefighter = $25.00/hr
A plumber!! = $75.00/hr
A scuba instructor = $10.00/hr
A Landlord = that ones good

The only way to teach scuba at any level is have one or more good jobs to support yourself.
If I had a choice I would be just a scuba instructor, but I got tiered of Kraft Dinner many years ago

My teaching scuba is like dealing drugs; I teach it to support my habit. [Talking from a price / hr perspective only] there are a lot of reasons I tech and sometimes I even do it for free [kids under ten]

There are plenty of dive shops that give away courses just to sell gear; I used to work for one 20 years ago.
At the entry level course cost is supply and demand.
There are so many instructors many willing to work for free
Molokini Island were I worked for tips only. And I sold pictures of the divers but that was a side thing that my boss didn't even know about. But to my boss I was free labour

So at the entry level it will always be cheap courses and also probably about selling gear.


At the technical or public safety level it is a whole different story.
These courses are not for the tourist diver. You have to be committed; you have to seek out qualified individuals to teach it
And they are far and few between.

Look at public safety diver training for example Lifeguard Systems
1800.00 for a basic course

Look at other training along the same lines
High angle rescue course = $700.00
Crane Tower rescue course = $1500.00
Swift water rescue course level 1 = $800.00 level 2 = $1200.00
Live Fire Attack training level 1 = $1200.00 2 = 1500.00 3 = 1800.0

All of these courses the instructor has your life in his hands, your life depends on you understanding the teaching, and other than swift water rescue non are longer that 3 days

I think that these course fall under the same lines as technical scuba training, except for one thing. When the course is over you can never talk to your instructor again.

With scuba your instructor will always make himself available to you for questions and even a refresher dive generally for free.

With my first tech course my instructor became my dive buddy and we have been dive buddies ever since.

Tech instructors need to start charging what they are worth, but keep in mind allot of them also get a commission off of the gear you buy so you need to figure that into the deal

PADI's TecRec course is going for about $1500.00
Most IANTD or TDI course is about $700.00
PADI Open Water Diver about $300.00
And look at the time involved in each course

[Note all prices are Canadian, so that’s free in America]

 

[neil]

Originally posted by MikeS
1.
2. The concept of any instructor teaching for "the money" makes me nervous. I think my instructor does it because he loves it, if he had to pay to teach it he probably would! I like the idea that he has a “day time job” and does this cause he likes it, not because he needs the money.
3. I would advise him; “get a day time job and if you really love it, teach when and where you can.” Perhaps this sounds extreem but I waited many years till I could afford this as a hobby and take exception with the concept that I should pay to subsidize the training of others.
I also think that the idea that a scuba diving instructor is “taking responsibility for your life” is over-played. What does a CPR instructor make, or a drivers education instructor? Or how about a teacher or police officer? But I ramble on.
Mike

Mike,
What kind of engineering work are you going to do for free for me this week? After all, you do it just because you enjoy it, don't you. I mean, why should I pay you $100 dollars an hour just to repay your engineering degree costs? The concept of "engineering for money" makes me nervous: you should be designing things that make the world a better place for free.

YOUR instructor is going to have to put up with your crap, your plumber is going to have to crawl in it. That's why he gets paid more.

Mike, are you for real?

Neil

 

[neil]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I'm so-o-o- sorry, but I do feel much better now.
I think we are not charging enough for instruction. What that means really depends on where you are and what you consider your time is worth. How much, or little are you willing to work for?
I don't believe there is any conflict between loving your work and insisting on making a profit from it. I'm a professional musician, and I don't play for free (okay, sometimes for good causes).

I agree with Lost Yooper that you have to insist on being paid what you need. If you are good, word WILL get out. No, you may not make your entire living at it, but when you do instruct, it will be profitable.

Neil