Are we charging enough?

[CAMPER]

How about looking at the situation from another angle. I believe the pricing for scuba is based on supply and demand. The supply of instructors is greater then the demand. The amount of $ they are able to command are therefore less.

The problem can only be solved by decreasing the number of instructors/shops or increasing the demand for their services. You can make it much harder or more expensive to enter the carreer path, the way Docs do it, or really market the industry, such as leisure/airlines etc.

I see so many instructors that are doing this for non-business reasons, such as love of sport or trying to pay for their obsession with it. I don't believe anyone will get a "fair" return in the business. I believe the supply of instructors is HUGE and as reimbursement increases more people will just enter the field.

The good part is that this would also limit the involvement of big business. They know they are going to get screwed in this business so it will probably stay a mom & pop industry.

Ed B

 

[carlislere]

This is an interesting question(s) U.P. I took my Basic/Open Water course in 1978 and paid $150 + books and I had to get a physical.
In 2002, in the Austin area, price for a course is $125-$150 for a group class, some use of books included others + purchase of books. The shop I teach for, as far as I know, charges the most in Austin for group classes, $175 +books. I am sure this varies around the country, but look at the price I paid in 1978 and what is being charged now. There inlies the problem.
We obviously do not get the numbers of students that other shops get, but the shop I teach for does sell the dive gear. Of course, the goal of the shop is selling dive gear. They don't make any money teaching scuba, none of the shops in our area do.
If I could make a living teaching scuba, believe me, that is what I would be doing, but I have a wife and kiddos to support and feed. I have changed my attitude in recent years that if I am going to teach, I am going to make some money. That is why I teach for the highest price store in town, which also pays the highest for a class to the instructors.
The technical diving end of the industry has been doing a better job. Prices from what I have seen are $400-$800 for a course(s) depending on which course. They should keep it that way. Of course, the down side is there is not near the student volume in tech as in the recreational side.
And lastly, a store owner friend told me of an article in a DEMA newsletter or paper a year or two ago that stated the Dart industry is bigger than the scuba diving industry. Less face it, we are not very high up the ladder.
My .02 cents worth.
Ron

 

[AquaTec]

It is true what you say about the price staying the same or less

In Hawaii in 1982 an open water course was five full days and cost $500.00

Today the course can be done in three days and cost $300.00 and in some cases less

Same price per day after 20 years, same certification, less time with an instructor

 

[Ed Jewell]

Let's face it. The recreational diving industry is a mom and pop industry and who are mom and pop going to look out for first? Mom and pop of course.

As long as instructor schools are willing to turn out green horn instructors who are willing to work for practically nothing ("I teach just to see the wonder in my students eyes")uke:, then mom and pop will gladly hire them on and pay them next to nothing. Then after they burnout 2 years later, mom and pop will happily replace them with another newbie instructor that will work for practically nothing.

As for the cost of an OW course in my area, the range from $165.00 - 195.00. This is where they have stayed for the last 10-12 years. No one seems to want to be the first to raise prices. Just like touching the cost of an air fill ($2.50 - 3.50 locally) raising the cost of the OW course is a taboo subject.

Back in the late 80's the cost to an OW course was up to $225.00 and everyone was happy. However, two chain dive shops entered the area and started with the $89.00 course Bull Sh*t. Locals bought it hook, line and sinker :deal: They were too stupid to realize that this $89.00 was just the cost to walk through the front door. As soon as they were in the shop, the nickel and diming commenced. After paying instructor fees, book fees, gear rentals, boat fees, hotel fees, etc., their $89.00 course had suddenly turned into a $300.00 course. This caused the established shops to drop their fees to the current levels.

By the way, those $89.00 shops, have since gone out ot business.

 

[Inspector#2]

The shops in Idaho charge about $250 O/W, $175 AO/W, and $210 Nitrox. This is priced from a PADI facility. IANTD Nitrox was $275 + books, river $200 and ice $250 again less the books.
I would like to believe the training received was equal to the dollar value but I'm not sure.
The local ski resort was charging $400 for a season pass and losing money every year. For the last couple years they reduced the price to $200 and have made money like crazy.
In our location I don't know if the same economic play would work for the LDS. I have seen many people walk out the door when the salesmen start adding up the cost to enjoy this sport. $250 O/W, $150 mask, snorkle, fins, $1000 for BC and reg, or $50 a day for one tank rentals. They do offer a 10% student discount-big deal!
Higher volumn may result from less cost and I don't mean giving away product or services.
Somebody mentioned a plumber making money, well lets look
at aviation. The mechanic that ensures your dive vacation doesn't start 1000 miles early makes less than the average auto mechanic.

Dave

 

[MikeS]

Neil,

It’s obvious that my post upset you. It was not intentional; please explain what it was that upset you.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[CAMPER]

Dave,

The average plumber or auto mechanic has a lot more training then the average OW instructor. These guys have years worth of classroom and on the job training. Currently I could get an instructor cert in about 2 months of fairly tough training. They can't be compared.

The number of people that want to instruct is mind boggling. On average they train 1/3 of all instructors every year. I believe if they required advanced education as an entry requirement it would raise the bar and limit the number of new guys making them more valuable.

I'm not saying that current instructors don't get the job done in case anyone was thinking that.


Ed B

 

[neil]

MikeS,
Here's why your post got me going. And of course this is just MY interpretation of what you said.

I think you imply that scuba instruction is not a real vocation, but a hobby or avocation at best.
I consider myself a professional educator in scuba and my main field of endeavor. Let me assure you that teaching scuba properly is hard work when done correctly. And don't belittle the safety aspect of teaching diving. Idiot instructors have gotten people killed, or so I've read.

You said it makes you nervous that somebody would teach for money. What do you mean by that? Does that make it seedy somehow? I teach for money, as much as I can get! Sometimes for periods (summer) I make my living solely as a scuba instructor.

You said you don't want to pay for somebody's training. Every time you buy anything, goods or services, you are paying someone's overhead, and that includes their training to do the job. Who do you think paid for your doctor's schooling. You did, in part. When you put out your shingle as an engineer and set up fee schedules, did you forget all about the $$ you paid for your degree?

ANY profession can be practiced to a very high degree of competence and professionalism. I consider myself a trained pro in scuba instruction, and conduct myself accordingly. There are some really excellent instructors out there, and they deserve decent pay for their work, IMO.

Well, now I'M rambling. Hope you understood my points.
Neil

 

[solodiver]

Guess it boils down to supply and demand. look at university tuitions.. eventually only the rich well be able to send their kids to university.. further education in diving is heading in this direction.. 4 to 5 hundred dollars a course is a bit much. specially if you looking at having to take 4 or 5 courses to be able to do the diving you want to do...

my 2 cents

 

[AquaTec]

the topic of cost for course can be broken down into two catagories.

Recreational instructors are dime a dozen. and most people get their instruction based on the stores promotion or conveniance.
if you are a recreational instructor and quit your store today they will have a replacement before you get home
I am not saying this is the way it should be it is just how it is. supply, demand and the potential to sell other products [a loss leader] regulate this part of the industry.

Technical instructors are generaly seeked out by their first name those who have a better name for themselves tend to get more money. this marketing concept is based on reputation and value added. so dive shops are fighting over these instructors each one offering the instructor something better.

this is all steriotyping, it is not saying that there are not good or bad instructor from either section of the industry.
the cream still rises and the s**t gets flushed.