Are dive computers making bad divers?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

My HOME computer is very slow and running out of gas and I've been away 3 weeks, but I disagree with very little of the few posts I HAVE read in this thread. One possible situation where dive computers may be a problem is if the computer doesn't suddenly conk out (flood?) and the diver hasn't been religiously checking remaining NDL, and also has no backup computer or analog stuff. That is, the computer is showing data but it is really not accurate. I, like countless others, can tell you without checking that at 80 fsw on Air your limit is 30 minutes. So with or without a computer, those that know table limits and what time it is will more likely know if something is askew with the computer than those without such ingrained backround. I believe most of our instructors still teach tables, but unlike when I took OW 10 years ago (same shop), no more tables once you hit the pool. I have recommended to students to do a table problem daily -- or at least weekly-- if tables are going to really help with anything. I guess another side issue is what do we mean by "bad" divers--more unsafe ones, or more lax ones that may be just poor divers?--I assume the former. It has though been pointed out often on SB that (whatever) statistics over decades have shown that (reported...) dive deaths/accidents rates have always been the same, whether it's 1970 or 2010, etc. Don't know how true that is, but if so then I guess computer use only is not making more "bad" divers than before. I'll also bet that way before my time in 1970 no diver even KNEW what a "bicycle" kick was....
 
My HOME computer is very slow and running out of gas and I've been away 3 weeks, but I disagree with very little of the few posts I HAVE read in this thread. One possible situation where dive computers may be a problem is if the computer doesn't suddenly conk out (flood?) and the diver hasn't been religiously checking remaining NDL, and also has no backup computer or analog stuff. That is, the computer is showing data but it is really not accurate. I, like countless others, can tell you without checking that at 80 fsw on Air your limit is 30 minutes. So with or without a computer, those that know table limits and what time it is will more likely know if something is askew with the computer than those without such ingrained backround. I believe most of our instructors still teach tables, but unlike when I took OW 10 years ago (same shop), no more tables once you hit the pool. I have recommended to students to do a table problem daily -- or at least weekly-- if tables are going to really help with anything. I guess another side issue is what do we mean by "bad" divers--more unsafe ones, or more lax ones that may be just poor divers?--I assume the former. It has though been pointed out often on SB that (whatever) statistics over decades have shown that (reported...) dive deaths/accidents rates have always been the same, whether it's 1970 or 2010, etc. Don't know how true that is, but if so then I guess computer use only is not making more "bad" divers than before. I'll also bet that way before my time in 1970 no diver even KNEW what a "bicycle" kick was....

No offence to the old guys but... You dont need a table to memorize your limits at depth because you can do that with a computer too. I myself know how long I'm supposed to take on a FIRST dive at a particular depth because that information is readily available on my computer (before it fails of course).

Where do tech divers cut tables from? Some computer program right? It's very easy to run Sims on dives before diving to know your limits with a computer. Far easier than trying to work it out with a table

Needless to say, being trained with tables DOES NOT mean you will actually memorize the table and depth limits... Being a good engaged diver means you would probably remmeber it faster... Just like I have a fair idea of how long i am supposed to stay down on dives and repeated dives based on experience and trends


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Tables have nothing to do with memorizing. It has everything to do with understanding them. With out understanding them you have no clue when your puter is lying to you. We have all sorts of horses to tell us what the tables say. like the 140/120 rule for ndl. A lot of learning happens when playing with them. if you made a dive to 100 ft on air and the rental cmputer's ndl tells you 30 minutes, it is lying to you and you need to reset it up for air and not nitrox32. Us old guys are old because we learned the basics through he years. As far as where do tech divers cut tables from. yes a computer but not blindly. I bet those tech guys try a new program and compare it to dives they have takes to see how the tables look as far as being realistic. Once they learn to trust the outputs from a program they use it but still do a logic test on every result it gives. In short the puter is a tool and not a master of the diver. using the 120 rule at 100 ft then 120-100 gives you 20. Thats 20 min ndl at 100 ft. Is it precise no is it close yes. how do i know that????? i compared it to a table. If i look at a table it may very well say 18 mn at 100 ft. but knowing the table and how it works i may also know that the ndl printed may be actually 90% of the real ndl as a safety margin. the 2 minutes is not that important but knowing that the computer says 30 and your horse tells you 20 should make you step back and re-evaluate to reconcile the difference. You cant do that f you don't understand tables. Concepts like diving nitrox but using your computer in air mode to shorten your SI. Does it
???? you wont prove/know if you cant work a table. If you cant work a table you are diving trust me dives. If you dive using the 120 rule and never verifying that it does or does not work, then it is a trust me dive. if you dont know that 120/140 are 2 numbers to use dependng on the depth you are at . You are doing trust me dives. Using nitrox but having your computer in air mode is not an easy stratagy to compensate for lack of knowledge. Do you need to have an in depth bonding with tables, certainly not but a basic understanding of them, yes. Just one old guys opinion...

No offence to the old guys but... You dont need a table to memorize your limits at depth because you can do that with a computer too. I myself know how long I'm supposed to take on a FIRST dive at a particular depth because that information is readily available on my computer (before it fails of course).

Where do tech divers cut tables from? Some computer program right? It's very easy to run Sims on dives before diving to know your limits with a computer. Far easier than trying to work it out with a table

Needless to say, being trained with tables DOES NOT mean you will actually memorize the table and depth limits... Being a good engaged diver means you would probably remmeber it faster... Just like I have a fair idea of how long i am supposed to stay down on dives and repeated dives based on experience and trends


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I agree with both last 2 posts. Of course memorizing tables or anything doesn't make you "better". And understanding what you have to do to be "safe" is what counts. If you are doing a 100' square profile you can look up the ndl on a table or computer beforehand without having it on the tip of your tongue. If you dive certain depths often enough it becomes memorized anyway. I think the problem is that diving with computers only without knowing what the ndl is for a square profile MAY cause some to just jump in and look at the computer for remaining bottom time. Saying that tables leave the picture many times because of multi-level dives is OK and the computer makes dive times realistic (if you're only down 100' for 5 minutes what do you do with table pressure groups). If you jump in without any idea of ndls you may be in trouble at some point. On dives below 30-40' I use both computer and watch/tables. Having a backup computer would probably be fine as well, as the chances of 2 computers crapping out is probably miniscual. Tables guys will say that tables never crap out.
 
Tables guys will say that tables never crap out.

And I'll happily tell them they do... You still need a depth gauge, it can fail. You still need a timer, it can fail. So yeah, sure, you'll have a nice table and all, but you have nothing to use them anyway so you're basically screwed as well.

It's sad to see how people "that know how to use tables" think they are superior... I mean, you're just following a line and a column, but what do I know, I never used them, I must be perfectly clueless about deco....
 
It's sad to see how people "that know how to use tables" think they are superior... I mean, you're just following a line and a column, but what do I know, I never used them, I must be perfectly clueless about deco....

Aren't you venturing rather close to hyperbole country here? I might just as well complain that we who think that tables can still be useful are thought to be dinosaurs (and that is, IIRC, an actual quote from this thread, while I haven't seen anyone claiming outright that tables guys are superior), but I don't see how a post like that would add any substance to the discussion.
 
Its not a mater of superiority for me. It is a matter of understanding your tool when it is right and when it wrong. The computer is only as right as it is set up to be. Set it up wrong and it serves you wrong, and it will do so at the wrong time. I have had the incorrect nitrox setting nearly bite me before. Its all about check and ballance. Or perhaps trust but verify.
 
I have dived without computer to 112m depth. Just 2 bottomtimes and diveplan. Now I use a computer too, but still make plans. It is not that I cannot make a plan anymore, but there is now a 'thing' thinking with me. As I teach trimix courses, I learn students to work with bottomtimer, and follow the diveplan (run/stoptime tables). But if they have a computer they can take it with them.
 
I have dived without computer to 112m depth. Just 2 bottomtimes and diveplan. Now I use a computer too, but still make plans. It is not that I cannot make a plan anymore, but there is now a 'thing' thinking with me. As I teach trimix courses, I learn students to work with bottomtimer, and follow the diveplan (run/stoptime tables). But if they have a computer they can take it with them.


Way above my pay grade, so I would defer to you on this, but I would think that the deeper you go, the less useful a computer would be.

The main advantage of a computer is that it calculates your N2 loading on the fly, so that when you're actual profile differs significantly from the square profile plan that you drew up ahead of time, you get credit for less-than-anticipated N2 load (or get warned about it when you go over that profile). That lets you deviate in time and depth from the plan but still have a good idea of a safe NDL.

Frequently, I will cut a profile for a relatively shallow tech dive and put it on my slate, but then we end up spending more time at shallower depth if the wreck has a lot of relief, and we might extend our run time based on the actual N2 loading of the dive, as shown on a computer.

I would assume that at 112m, you aren't deviating very far from the plan that you made ahead of time on the spur of the moment.
 
It is becoming more and more frequent that I find myself with divers who are extremely computer dependent. Since computers are becoming a dime a dozen, I am not sure if this is a bad thing. I asked one of the divers I was with if she was able to plan and conduct dives without a computer and she told me that she has over 200 dives but was never trained on tables.

How many of you guys do dives without computers? For those senior divers who have been diving since before the computer revolution, do you feel that the new generation has been idiotized by computers, or no.

I jumped in this thread late and I haven't read any other responses yet so I apologize if I'm repeating.

First of all, asking if a computer can even THEORETICALLY turn someone into a bad diver is like asking if putting a hat on your head can make you an evil human being.

The computer, like the hat, is a tool with a function. That's it. That's all it is, and that's all it does. The computer calculates NDL's on the fly, and the hat keeps rain off your head. Attributing any more significance or importance to the computer than that, is attributing too much influence to the computer and too little to the diver.

That said, one must be *trained* to use the computer wisely, just as we (I am also one of the "pre-computer" generation) were also *trained* to use tables wisely.

Almost all of the best practices that applied to using tables applies to using computers. There are a few new ones that are unique to using computers because the N2 loading can normally become higher than it would have been on a similar dive with tables. You need look no further than the fact that computers allow for longer bottom times to confirm this, even if you don't know much about deco models.

So what happens is that it comes down to a matter of training. Poorly trained divers will dive poorly. People who are not adequately trained to use a computer, or tables or any other technique (like ratio deco) to calculate NDLs will not use those tools adequately. It's really that simple.

To put it another way, think about learning to drive a car. If someone just gives you the keys and doesn't tell you what any of the controls do or how to make it go or stop, then you're probably going to have trouble handling it. Likewise with a dive computer. If you just buy one at the LDS and don't understand the functions or the best practices, then you can hurt yourself even if the computer is "happy" with your dive. None of that has anything to do with the computer. it's purely a training issue.

As for your second question, I still regularly make dives on tables during training because I only have 2 computers to give to students. Normally I don't dive with more than 2 OW students during training but in these cases I just dive using tables. It's not hard since the NDL at 18m is 56 minutes and we're never deeper than 18m and seldom longer than 30 min for a training dive. Kind of a no-brainer.

Last summer I made a couple of "real" dives on tables with my daughter, who--although she was trained to understand tables--uses only the computer. This happened because the shop where we went only had one computer to rent. In my past I made the first 650 dives or so on tables so for me it wasn't a problem.

So what did I say to my daughter? If you're going on vacation just throw your computer in your backpack. If you need it, it's there. Those are the new realities. I can think of only a few dives that I wouldn't have been able to make if I had only been trained with computers and had never learned tables. In the future, that number will only continue to drop.

R..
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom