Are dive computers making bad divers?

[oldschoolto]

So I'm looking at computers and read this review...Oceanic Veo 180 Air/Nitrox Wrist Dive Computer Customer Reviews

CAREFUL!!! TOO LIBERAL
Ive done about 300 dives with this dive computer as a divemaster... Its very robust, reliable and easy to read... although using the menus is a bit of a pain in theass (just one button)... The main problem I had with it started when I noticed the diference between my VEO180 and the other divers computer's NO DECO time limit (mainly suunto and uwatec)... this computer is way too liberal (as are all oceanic dive computers)! it's Algorithm is based on PADI tables! the most backwards and outdated tables in the market too! First time I noticed this, I was leading a dive... Just me and another diver (with an UWATEC computer)... we decided to do a nice & long dive starting at 25ish meters and work our way up the reef, always staying 3-5 min away from deco. this was the diver's 1st dive of his dive trip and I had been diving everyday for 2 weeks (3-4 times a day - my comp should have been much more conservative than his). the diver was next to me all the time (did nothing strange). at around 9 meters, the diver tapped my shoulder and showed me his dive computer... 11 min into deco!! while my VEO180 was saying all was fine... that I could stay down there at around 9 meters more than an hour!!! of course... the diver should've let me know he was about to go into deco... not 11 min INTO DECO! after that, I started cross-checking my VEO180 with every other dive comp that I got a chance (even some test dives with my fellow divemasters using SUUNTO). the big differences where always there. that got me thinking of the many times I had done long (not necessarily deep) dives keeping close to deco... acording to most dive computers on the market, I would have had to do DECO STOPS on all of them! As soon as I was able to, I bought myself a SUUNTO (It was either that or an UWATEC)..... Ive heard people complain about some computers being too conservative... but, with decompresion theory a big mistery... all based on empirical evidence... No one knows how all that disolved gas in your body REALLY behaves.. ITS BETTER TO GO FOR TOO CONSEVATIVE, RATHER THAN TOO LIBERAL!! although I (and many more divers allover the world) have done quite a few dives with the VEO180 and nothing has happened to me, it is still too much of a gamble for my taste... If you are going to use this computer... I recomend you dive it much more conservative than it tells you... Stay away from deep dives... but if you go deep, then add deep stops and extra mins to your safety (deco) stop... Regardless of the dive computer (with this one even more), watch you accent rate... go up as slow as posible, take you time, specially in shallow water. I dont recomend this dive computer to anyone... much less a beginner. spend a few extra bucks on a SUUNTO... the GEKKO is an excellent entry level dive computer. This was not an isolated case... It was not just my VEO180 that had a problem... All OCEANIC dive computers are like that. I have met several people over the years with OCEANIC comps... all of them way too liberal (in my opinion). Think about it before you buy... Try one first... next to another dive computer of a different brand if posible, so you can see the difference.

So are tables better than a VEO180??? And what's the thoughts on the VEO 3.0 as a first computer for a old guy that now is thinking,,, F*@K I'll buy one...

Jim....

​

 

[bfw]

It would be no surprise if extremely few average divers trust that they could possibly know enough about what they doing to try diving without a computer.

Which means to me that, for reasons of intelligence, confidence, dominant response to a challenge, general awareness, and sense of personal responsibility/self-reliance, extremely few average divers should be diving.

I mean, come on, when you look at the fact that a whole lot of people dove successfully before computers were available, and they weren't all rocket scientists and brain surgeons (some of them were janitors) you should be able to figure out that they put their pants on one leg at a time just like you and they didn't have an S on their chest. If you truly believe that what prior generations saw as not particularly daunting is superhuman, what does that say about the future of humanity?

 

[Rhone Man]

So I'm looking at computers and read this review...Oceanic Veo 180 Air/Nitrox Wrist Dive Computer Customer Reviews

CAREFUL!!! TOO LIBERAL
Ive done about 300 dives with this dive computer as a divemaster... Its very robust, reliable and easy to read... although using the menus is a bit of a pain in theass (just one button)... The main problem I had with it started when I noticed the diference between my VEO180 and the other divers computer's NO DECO time limit (mainly suunto and uwatec)... this computer is way too liberal (as are all oceanic dive computers)! it's Algorithm is based on PADI tables! the most backwards and outdated tables in the market too! First time I noticed this, I was leading a dive... Just me and another diver (with an UWATEC computer)... we decided to do a nice & long dive starting at 25ish meters and work our way up the reef, always staying 3-5 min away from deco. this was the diver's 1st dive of his dive trip and I had been diving everyday for 2 weeks (3-4 times a day - my comp should have been much more conservative than his). the diver was next to me all the time (did nothing strange). at around 9 meters, the diver tapped my shoulder and showed me his dive computer... 11 min into deco!! while my VEO180 was saying all was fine... that I could stay down there at around 9 meters more than an hour!!! of course... the diver should've let me know he was about to go into deco... not 11 min INTO DECO! after that, I started cross-checking my VEO180 with every other dive comp that I got a chance (even some test dives with my fellow divemasters using SUUNTO). the big differences where always there. that got me thinking of the many times I had done long (not necessarily deep) dives keeping close to deco... acording to most dive computers on the market, I would have had to do DECO STOPS on all of them! As soon as I was able to, I bought myself a SUUNTO (It was either that or an UWATEC)..... Ive heard people complain about some computers being too conservative... but, with decompresion theory a big mistery... all based on empirical evidence... No one knows how all that disolved gas in your body REALLY behaves.. ITS BETTER TO GO FOR TOO CONSEVATIVE, RATHER THAN TOO LIBERAL!! although I (and many more divers allover the world) have done quite a few dives with the VEO180 and nothing has happened to me, it is still too much of a gamble for my taste... If you are going to use this computer... I recomend you dive it much more conservative than it tells you... Stay away from deep dives... but if you go deep, then add deep stops and extra mins to your safety (deco) stop... Regardless of the dive computer (with this one even more), watch you accent rate... go up as slow as posible, take you time, specially in shallow water. I dont recomend this dive computer to anyone... much less a beginner. spend a few extra bucks on a SUUNTO... the GEKKO is an excellent entry level dive computer. This was not an isolated case... It was not just my VEO180 that had a problem... All OCEANIC dive computers are like that. I have met several people over the years with OCEANIC comps... all of them way too liberal (in my opinion). Think about it before you buy... Try one first... next to another dive computer of a different brand if posible, so you can see the difference.

So are tables better than a VEO180??? And what's the thoughts on the VEO 3.0 as a first computer for a old guy that now is thinking,,, F*@K I'll buy one...

Jim....

Agree with you, Jim.

It is interesting that his complaint is that the computer is too liberal - not that it is inaccurate. He sounds like a Republican (joke). Interesting also that his spelling is awful ("mistery") and that he doesn't allege anything bad happened as a result of a liberal computer (other than longer NDLs, of course), he just doesn't like liberal dive computers. Guess you don't really need to be a rocket scientist to be a divemaster.

If so, he can get a free upgrade just cranking up the conservative settings!

 

[The Chairman]

It is interesting that his complaint is that the computer is too liberal - //snip//

If so, he can get a free upgrade just cranking up the conservative settings!

He appears to be ignorant of PDC functions and still uses them which is a dangerous mix. There was an LDS who was complaining bitterly about how PDCs are dangerous. He cited a lady coming in to return her PDC because it wouldn't shut up: beeping at her all the time. When they downloaded her profile she had blown off over 20 minutes of deco. It was obvious that she was ignorant of what the beeps meant or how to read deco from her PDC. It's not the tool's fault if you don't use it. It's definitely not the tool's fault if you use it improperly.

 

[scubadada]

So I'm looking at computers and read this review...Oceanic Veo 180 Air/Nitrox Wrist Dive Computer Customer Reviews

CAREFUL!!! TOO LIBERAL
Ive done about 300 dives with this dive computer as a divemaster... Its very robust, reliable and easy to read... although using the menus is a bit of a pain in theass (just one button)... The main problem I had with it started when I noticed the diference between my VEO180 and the other divers computer's NO DECO time limit (mainly suunto and uwatec)... this computer is way too liberal (as are all oceanic dive computers)! it's Algorithm is based on PADI tables! the most backwards and outdated tables in the market too! First time I noticed this, I was leading a dive... Just me and another diver (with an UWATEC computer)... we decided to do a nice & long dive starting at 25ish meters and work our way up the reef, always staying 3-5 min away from deco. this was the diver's 1st dive of his dive trip and I had been diving everyday for 2 weeks (3-4 times a day - my comp should have been much more conservative than his). the diver was next to me all the time (did nothing strange). at around 9 meters, the diver tapped my shoulder and showed me his dive computer... 11 min into deco!! while my VEO180 was saying all was fine... that I could stay down there at around 9 meters more than an hour!!! of course... the diver should've let me know he was about to go into deco... not 11 min INTO DECO! after that, I started cross-checking my VEO180 with every other dive comp that I got a chance (even some test dives with my fellow divemasters using SUUNTO). the big differences where always there. that got me thinking of the many times I had done long (not necessarily deep) dives keeping close to deco... acording to most dive computers on the market, I would have had to do DECO STOPS on all of them! As soon as I was able to, I bought myself a SUUNTO (It was either that or an UWATEC)..... Ive heard people complain about some computers being too conservative... but, with decompresion theory a big mistery... all based on empirical evidence... No one knows how all that disolved gas in your body REALLY behaves.. ITS BETTER TO GO FOR TOO CONSEVATIVE, RATHER THAN TOO LIBERAL!! although I (and many more divers allover the world) have done quite a few dives with the VEO180 and nothing has happened to me, it is still too much of a gamble for my taste... If you are going to use this computer... I recomend you dive it much more conservative than it tells you... Stay away from deep dives... but if you go deep, then add deep stops and extra mins to your safety (deco) stop... Regardless of the dive computer (with this one even more), watch you accent rate... go up as slow as posible, take you time, specially in shallow water. I dont recomend this dive computer to anyone... much less a beginner. spend a few extra bucks on a SUUNTO... the GEKKO is an excellent entry level dive computer. This was not an isolated case... It was not just my VEO180 that had a problem... All OCEANIC dive computers are like that. I have met several people over the years with OCEANIC comps... all of them way too liberal (in my opinion). Think about it before you buy... Try one first... next to another dive computer of a different brand if posible, so you can see the difference.

So are tables better than a VEO180??? And what's the thoughts on the VEO 3.0 as a first computer for a old guy that now is thinking,,, F*@K I'll buy one...

Jim....

​

This is ridiculous, so, many divers get bent on DSAT computer algorithms and PADI tables? The reporter had about 300 dives on the DSAT algorithm and did fine, I have over 1000, and have done fine. The DSAT algorithm has undergone much scrutiny, including the PADI tables, and performs well. As you know, the PADI table is more conservative than the Navy table, actually, by a significant amount. Probably, only the Buhlmann algorithm is better characterized. There is gross misunderstanding regarding decompression algorithms. So, what do you do, dive one of the proprietary RGBM algorithms, have shorter NDLs, and get penalized for breaking their undocumented rules?

 

[Littlerayray]

I got taught how to use tables but have never used them computers are more accurate

---------- Post added December 20th, 2015 at 11:26 AM ----------

And allow you to put your focus on other tasks at hand just remember to change the battery

 

[BRT]

So I'm looking at computers and read this review...Oceanic Veo 180 Air/Nitrox Wrist Dive Computer Customer Reviews

CAREFUL!!! TOO LIBERAL
Ive done about 300 dives with this dive computer as a divemaster... Its very robust, reliable and easy to read... although using the menus is a bit of a pain in theass (just one button)... The main problem I had with it started when I noticed the diference between my VEO180 and the other divers computer's NO DECO time limit (mainly suunto and uwatec)... this computer is way too liberal (as are all oceanic dive computers)! it's Algorithm is based on PADI tables! the most backwards and outdated tables in the market too! First time I noticed this, I was leading a dive... Just me and another diver (with an UWATEC computer)... we decided to do a nice & long dive starting at 25ish meters and work our way up the reef, always staying 3-5 min away from deco. this was the diver's 1st dive of his dive trip and I had been diving everyday for 2 weeks (3-4 times a day - my comp should have been much more conservative than his). the diver was next to me all the time (did nothing strange). at around 9 meters, the diver tapped my shoulder and showed me his dive computer... 11 min into deco!! while my VEO180 was saying all was fine... that I could stay down there at around 9 meters more than an hour!!! of course... the diver should've let me know he was about to go into deco... not 11 min INTO DECO! after that, I started cross-checking my VEO180 with every other dive comp that I got a chance (even some test dives with my fellow divemasters using SUUNTO). the big differences where always there. that got me thinking of the many times I had done long (not necessarily deep) dives keeping close to deco... acording to most dive computers on the market, I would have had to do DECO STOPS on all of them! As soon as I was able to, I bought myself a SUUNTO (It was either that or an UWATEC)..... Ive heard people complain about some computers being too conservative... but, with decompresion theory a big mistery... all based on empirical evidence... No one knows how all that disolved gas in your body REALLY behaves.. ITS BETTER TO GO FOR TOO CONSEVATIVE, RATHER THAN TOO LIBERAL!! although I (and many more divers allover the world) have done quite a few dives with the VEO180 and nothing has happened to me, it is still too much of a gamble for my taste... If you are going to use this computer... I recomend you dive it much more conservative than it tells you... Stay away from deep dives... but if you go deep, then add deep stops and extra mins to your safety (deco) stop... Regardless of the dive computer (with this one even more), watch you accent rate... go up as slow as posible, take you time, specially in shallow water. I dont recomend this dive computer to anyone... much less a beginner. spend a few extra bucks on a SUUNTO... the GEKKO is an excellent entry level dive computer. This was not an isolated case... It was not just my VEO180 that had a problem... All OCEANIC dive computers are like that. I have met several people over the years with OCEANIC comps... all of them way too liberal (in my opinion). Think about it before you buy... Try one first... next to another dive computer of a different brand if posible, so you can see the difference.

So are tables better than a VEO180??? And what's the thoughts on the VEO 3.0 as a first computer for a old guy that now is thinking,,, F*@K I'll buy one...

Jim....

​

So if the Oceanic algorithm is wrong we should have lots of data showing that after 35 years or so. Did the guy get bent or did he just have more NDL time with the Oceanic? When I was younger I dove my Oceanic right to the NDL limits. Now I'm old and I don't do that. Just because your speedometer goes to 140 doesn't mean you have to drive at that speed. And just because it only goes to 85 doesn't save you from an accident.

 

[Rhone Man]

So if the Oceanic algorithm is wrong we should have lots of data showing that after 35 years or so. Did the guy get bent or did he just have more NDL time with the Oceanic? When I was younger I dove my Oceanic right to the NDL limits. Now I'm old and I don't do that. Just because your speedometer goes to 140 doesn't mean you have to drive at that speed. And just because it only goes to 85 doesn't save you from an accident.

Just to make the point, I don't think anyone has ever proved any alogrith "right" or "wrong". They are just best guesses in a field where results are highly randomised by factors we don't understand. Interesting how many times you read stories like Pete's about someone blowing off 20 minutes of deco but still walking around fine. These are blunt (and inherently conservative) calculations.

 

[Neilwood]

Just to make the point, I don't think anyone has ever proved any alogrith "right" or "wrong". They are just best guesses in a field where results are highly randomised by factors we don't understand. Interesting how many times you read stories like Pete's about someone blowing off 20 minutes of deco but still walking around fine. These are blunt (and inherently conservative) calculations.

Very good point - algorithms are at best educated guesses as to what will happen in a text book situation. They are by nature conservative but given human nature there will still be people on both ends of the scale who "prove the rule wrong".

There are divers who will ignore 20 mins of deco and walk away fine as suggested (they tend to be the very fit) but there are others who have gotten bent while being within NDL (there is generally a reason why though such as fitness, injury, pre-existing condition, exertion, cold etc).

It is up to the diver to decide how big a risk to take with regards to the algorithm. Weigh up your risk factors against the "norm", decide how risk averse you want to be and pick your dive plan.

I would certainly be thinking about a different dive plan in 25 degree C water with no current (and very little thermal protection needed) than in 4-5 degree C water with currents and surface swells with added thermal protection and weight.

 

[oldschoolto]

Well, You guy's have some how changed this old school northeast wreck diver that has dived NAVY Tables since 1972 to buy a computer.. Just ordered 2 VEO 3.0 for the wife and myself.. Hope I don't get bent..

Jim