AquaSafari

[Gamehunter]

But with out a legal standard what is the standard in how a Captain is to use this information, in other words how far is a boat to stay away from a flag that has no standard. Tek I also do not disagree with you in that you had followed all protocal in which you were taught. But as we travel from country to country the rules change. As Jimmy says"Changes in Latitude Changes in Attitude". I would hope that dive flags could conform to all being 1 flag but as you can see it even changes from state to state. This is an issue that should be brought forth from the training agancies themselves, in the safety of their divers

 

[ggunn]

I just slogged through the 4 additional pages since I last looked at this thread, and there is NOTHING new in here, just the same tired points being volleyed around like a game of full contact lawn darts. I have a life, so I'm done. You guys have fun. Let me know if you want to get back to talking about diving. Where's that "ignore thread" button...?

 

[DandyDon]

I think men who have driven dive boats for decades need to be reminded that though they may be cracker jack helmsmen, they not get overconfident.
In the abscence of a gruesome accident, a circular from the harbormaster may help avoid, or at least postpone, the next diver getting hit by a boat.

A bad accident can serve as a reminder, but it is certainly preferable to accomplish that without a death of injury.

I don't have any real opinions on who did what wrong here, really - I don't much care, as I really see that a between you who live there. Besides, I wasn't there and certainly do not know enough from my few visits and few hundred dives to try to decide from all the posts here. I'll leave that to you all, if any of y'all feel a need for that.

Much more important is what we cyber divers can learn from all this and perhaps y'all can learn, maybe even instigate improvements, locally.

Best wishes to all of y'all...

Been put to dinner with my daughter's family. Need to pickup some Cheetos and Dr.Pepper on the way home.

 

[cicopo]

I don't think that many who are contributing to this message fully understand the general lay out of this specific dive site or how it is used. Paradise Reef is just north of the Presidente Hotel and basically ends where the parks northern boundary does at what was the Puerto Maya pier (destroyed by Hurricane Wilma). That section of Cozumel's reef system is used as a dive site, a commercial snorkeling site, and a place that most of the glass bottomed boats take customers; and they all do it to earn an income, and because it is convenient to town. Because of that it can be considered a rather busy reef with lots of boat traffic most of the day. If divers think that by doing a shore dive with the usual dive flag floating on the surface is going to protect such a large zone around them as this message is trying to imply then it will have a huge impact on the local economy because it would only take 3 or 4 floating flags (in the right areas) to restrict all local boats from entering any of that area. For anyone who has "google earth" just search out the Presidente Hotel, scroll north along the coastline until you see the remains of the destroyed pier and take a look at how many boats you see at that particular moment to get an idea of just how busy it gets there.
Many pages back I made some comments which I see were misinterpreted so I will try again.
Some who posted gave TND full marks because of his message count, which to me is a good starting point but not the only way to pick sides.
Re his age, 18 may legally be adult, but based on my own personal life I know for a fact (My opinion, not based from any personal contact with TND or his fellow divers) that I "thought" I knew it all, and that even though my father had worked his entire career life as a mechanic I simply had to know more about muscle cars because he hadn't ever owned one. I also KNEW I was bullet proof and that no matter how dangerous the situation nothing bad could happen to me. I was also certain that I was invaluable to whoever employed me, but after several years finally realized that if the President of the United States, or the Prime minister of Canada could be replaced overnight that maybe; just maybe, the planet wouldn't stop rotating on it's axis if something bad happened to me.
Re a dive flag vs a floating sausage. I use to take a dive flag to Coz & tow it where ever I went snorkeling PLUS wear a bright orange T shirt thinking I could easily be seen from a distance. After several trips I finally came to the realization that boat traffic had increaded by as much as 10 times what it had once been PLUS I seemed to be the only one with a flag and everyone else had a 6 foot long sausage which most certainly was more easily seen, whether sticking up out of the water or floating on it.
Re the age again. How many well established business owners would respect the opinions of someone that age who had accused them of being out to kill them and every other diver with them after realizing that the person was a "kid" as such???? Well it seems that one very well respected & highly successful one did, and still does, so to me that says something.

Although in a totally different business I do make my living from working in a hobby industry and have for the last 22 years and get to do it at home & at my own schedule. My annual advertising budget for the last 15 or so years is ZERO $ and ZERO cents and yet I still have at least one years work on site waiting for me to get to it with more promised that I really don't want. (I'm ready to retire but my customer are doing their best to prevent it).

TND, I totally respect & envy you for being able to get where you are in life by doing it by yourself through hard work & a frugal lifestyle, especially since I have only mastered the first half of that equation to date, but I warn you that after you age another 40 more years you will see all of this differently, and you will still be younger then than I am now.

 

[teknitroxdiver]

While I don't want to get into the age dispute again, as I feel it has no basis unless you know me personally, I will say that I had with me a 26 year old, a 41 year old, and two 40 year olds. Not exactly a bunch of kids out for a dive. And, their story is exactly the same as mine. The 26 year old is Morgan who posted here, the 41 year old is Ted, who also posted here.

Unless you know me personally, please restrain the comments about what my maturity level is, because you simply have no way of knowing. I'm not saying I'm more mature than the average 18 year old, simply saying that if you don't know me, the only guess you can make as to that is based on personal opinion which really isn't applicable.

But with out a legal standard what is the standard in how a Captain is to use this information, in other words how far is a boat to stay away from a flag that has no standard. Tek I also do not disagree with you in that you had followed all protocal in which you were taught. But as we travel from country to country the rules change. As Jimmy says"Changes in Latitude Changes in Attitude". I would hope that dive flags could conform to all being 1 flag but as you can see it even changes from state to state. This is an issue that should be brought forth from the training agancies themselves, in the safety of their divers

I can't answer the question about how far, but I know it's got to be more than ZERO feet, which is the space the boat kept in this instance.

 

[teknitroxdiver]

I've drawn up a cute little picture to show where exactly this happened at, since there seems to still be some confusion: Picasa Web Albums - Jonathan - Cozumel

The blue line shows our dive path, first heading south (upcurrent), then ending the dive downcurrent. The blue marker pin is where the altercation took place.


EDIT: I made another cute little picture, this one showing the path of the boat. The black X shows the position of the dive flag on the surface, and also myself 10' straight under it. The red line is the path of the boat's forward, high-speed travel. The yellow line is the boat's path in reverse, up to the point where it stopped beside my flag: Picasa Web Albums - Jonathan - Cozumel

 

[tedgarner]

I don't know if it matters but there were 2 40 year old men and a 41 year old man and and a 26 year old. If this has turned into an age thing add those numbers to it. I have known TND since he was born and his parents for most of my life. Don't even start to attack him because of his age or how you fill he has earned. He got to the captian and Dive master because He was closest. If I had been closer to the boat I would have taken the same action. On the spot this would have been very different if some on the boat had simply " I am sorry" . That is the way I see it. oops did not read all the latest post I kinda repeated Jonathan. I just for the record Jonathan I am only 41 buddy Don't make me post a thread on you.

 

[cicopo]

I am not questioning your age nor attitude, but I am suggesting that it will influence how others see this plus how you will look back on it 40 years from now. I truely mean no disrespect & frankly can see by your writing skills that you are rather mature for that age, but even with that said the very same situation will look very different over the years.

 

[Backscatter]

Some who posted gave TND full marks because of his message count,

I give him"full" marks because I have yet to see anything that discredits what he has said about how the incident unfolded. He does not dispute that he needed a permit, or that posting here first might not have been the best approach to resolving the matter. Mr. Horn has not disputed that the incident occurred as TND reported. I fail to see the point in dismissing the incident because TND wasn't permitted or accompanied by a DM. It could have been ANYONE below that dive flag/float which, according to information posted here, are used by other divers in area.

The issue at hand, and one that Mr. Horn has rightly seized upon, is WHY the dive flag was not seen and how a repeat occurrence might be prevented (I don't think anyone is still seriously suggesting that incident was not an accident). Of what relevance to that question is TND's age or maturity level?

From what I get out of Mr. Horn's post, the dive flag/float is a recognized signal in Cozumel. It's just one that is respected to varying levels, if at all. With regard to his operation, it was probably a case of it not being seen.

If you really want this thread to die down, stop trying to draw the focus back to TND, he was not operating the boat. Instead, let Mr. Horn use his local knowledge and influence to improve the situation. TND seems agreeable to assisting him in that effort.

 

[teknitroxdiver]

just for the record Jonathan I am only 41 buddy Don't make me post a thread on you.

Haha, yeah, I saw that and quickly fixed my own post. Sorry, old man!