AquaSafari

[DandyDon]

I see now. We are mostly looking at this from the wrong angle. This is really a learning opportunity for the diver and isn't about the boat captain at all.:mooner:

I'd lean more that direction, but I wasn't there. Don't know for sure...

Sometimes the only outcome is for the parties involved is to agree to disagree. Both Jonathan and AS have made good points. Is it time to put an end to this? Just my 2 cents

Probly, but don't expect that.

DandyDon, can I have a Dr. Pepper with my cheetos?

Jeeze...?!

Oh And

 

[redacted]

I'd lean more that direction, but I wasn't there. Don't know for sure...

Probly, but don't expect that.

Jeeze...?!

Oh And

Yeah. I don't run a dive flag when I shore dive in cozumel. Current makes it pretty much impossible anyway. And I know I am deep enough that boats overhead are not a hazard. I have managed to attract a few glass bottom boats in my trips out to Villa Blanc (pre-hurricanes).


I think those cheetos may come with mountain dew, but it may not be cold.

 

[TheFish]

I have been reading and didn't feel the need to get involved until AS's blood drawing entry. I was not at the site to see what happened first hand, but...

Let me take a stab at summing this up:

---At Dive Site---
- Tek and fellow divers nearly run over by AS boat on accident.

- Instead of apologizing for their error they verbally abused and even threatened Tek who was diving safely and had a visible dive flag at surface. Even if Tek had no flag, the fact that Tek was nearly hit and injured by the boat should have made the Captain and DM at least say something nice. Life is more valuable than pride! Both Captain and especially DM were very rude. The error fell on AS staff and not Tek and his fellow divers.

- A simple apology at sight of event would have ended this ordeal right from the start. Apparently some AS's staff don't know how to treat fellow divers.

---Internet Forum---
- I feel Tek should have taken this up directly with AS/Bill Horn first.
- Tek out of at least some irritation and need to expose a danger to all shore divers wrote in detail the events that transpired. A right that he does have; no matter what country you are in. So thank you!
- I don't believe Tek had any previous agenda against AS. He had no reason to make up any of this.
- Lots of negative publicity for AS. People are angry with AS.

---Breakfast---
- Bill Horn invites Tek and fellow divers to breakfast.
- Bill Horn brings DM and Captain to breakfast.
- They have a very nice and productive conversation.
- I believe AS apologized at breakfast??? If not directly then indirectly as Tek left happy.

---Internet After Breakfast---
- Tek tells everyone how nice Bill Horn was and that all is good again.
- Bill Horn writes nice things about Tek and friend.
- Good publicity comes from all of this as Bill is shown to be an upright individual and ready to solve problems and look for ways to improve AS safety.
- Lots of nice remarks about AS and Bill Horn as owner.

---Internet 180'd by Bill Horn---
- Horn lashes out against Tek
- Age (Unfair)
- Diving Skill (Erroneous)
- Indirectly threating legal ("Penal") action
- Withdrawing Verbal apology by "in writing" stating that it was never given. I have experience with law, lawyers and the legal system in the USA. This sounds a lot like the work and/or advice of a lawyer. They always tell you to never admit guilt. In this case, it is wrong as an apology would have solved this long ago.
- Spends much time picking apart many of Tek's statements and trying to discredit Tek and group.

- It seems that Mr. Horn might not be as nice as we had hoped.

-Tek responds in defense, but not lashing out at AS. Tek's response seems very reasonable. AS's facts might not be accurate. The dots don't quite add up.

- Bill Horn back peddles due to negative response.

SIMPLE: Error falls on Aqua Safari! This is not the OJ trial. Mistakes happen. No one was hurt, thank goodness! An apology would end this once and for all.

Bill Horn: You should have laid this to rest. You probably would have gained customers. I am not so sure now.

For the sake of AS's reputation I truly hope that he can make the right.

To the "Young Buck"; hats off to you! Your fellow diver.

 

[Backscatter]

... but the bottom line is...Jonathan doesn't have that much diving experience.....

So Jonathan, if you think three dive boats cruising over your flag doesn't tell you that in spite of all your attempts to do the right thing, this might not be working, then maybe you've put YOURSELF and your friends into a dangerous area or situation.

I'm a new diver with almost no diving experience, but from MY perspective, BOTH you and TND are experienced divers (him less so than you obviously). I've been following this thread from the start, but maybe I've still missing something. If he was diving with a flag and not doing so in a navigational channel, what mistake did his relative lack of experience cause him to make? If you take his original post at face value (and I still do), it was his situational awareness that prevented him from being injured. He recognized what was about to happen and took action to get out of the boat's way.

We all recognize that he was not diving legally, in that he did not obtain the proper permit and/or obtain a guide to dive where he did, but what else did he do that was unsafe? Was he not in an area routinely used by divers? Is anyone suggesting that the dive Ops should stop dropping divers in the water where this occurred?

How would this situation be any different (aside from the permit issue) if I were to dive a recognized dive sight in Key Largo or off North Carolina with a dive flag and have the same type of near miss with a vessel underway (dive boat or otherwise)?

I understand that it is foolish to rely on a dive flag or float to protect you when diving areas that divers are not expected or known to dive, but that doesn't seem to describe the area where this took place.

TND should have had a permit.

TND could have handled his dispute with Aqua Safari differently.

But what was he doing that was unsafe? I would like to dive in Cozumel one day and am curious to how it is different from my East Coast US diving experiences.

 

[Aqua Safari]

So many tangents. so much ventilating.
Could we get back to the subject?

I quote my entry on pg. 31:

Could Jonathan have beaten our boat to the shore? We saw you out there, on the mid cordillera and as Gabriel went in with his student, he noticed your bouy heading for shore and dipping under water. The divers beat the boat to shore? The boat ran over the divers? Or the divers caught up with the boat dropping divers off. I can only ask, I cannot answer.

When Tek answered Friday night, he gave me something I can work with.
I plan to translate it and provide it to all my Captains, but if Jonathan and his buddies could come up with a sequence of events from scratch, it would be productive reading for my Captains. I want to make a point. Could we be getting overconfident given Cozumel's amazing visibility / water clarity? Good time to think about this. Verdad?

I want to make the point to my Captains, and it would be best made and driven home if the shore divers handed the sequence of events as they saw them from underwater to the Captains themselves. Put a face on the issue. I would like to arrange that.

After that, and some aditional discussion amongst my staff that should explode especially if the shore divers came by, I would like to set up an association meeting perhaps breakfast. Let's present the issue to the harbormaster, request he research and / or define the safety area for a divebuoy in Cozumel, and remind ALL the Cozumel Captains, through what we call a circular; what a safe distance to a divebuoy is and how important it is to observe it.

If the boat drivers are thinking one way and the divers think differently, we are going to have a tragedy which we can help to avoid or at least postpone.

To quote entry 324:
Paradise is certainly crowded, the boats see things one way,
and if divers see things different, somebody's going to get hurt.

In my opinion, this is the subject; at least the one of interest to me.
Jonathan, will you work with me? Will you five help me?
Porfavor.

 

[TheUWPhotographer.com]

If he was diving with a flag and not doing so in a navigational channel, what mistake did his relative lack of experience cause him to make?

But what was he doing that was unsafe? I would like to dive in Cozumel one day and am curious to how it is different from my East Coast US diving experiences.

When I use the word "experience" I'm also referring to the experience he'll hopefully gain in learning how to handle a situation like this in the future.

I didn't say what he did was unsafe. I said he had put himself in an unsafe area or situation. Perhaps I should have said found himself in an unsafe area or situation. When I dive in Cozumel it is always with a qualified dive operator. If I'm going to dive without a DM then it would be within the roped off areas at Scuba Club or in front of one of the other hotels. I personally would not be comfortable diving in the area where Jonathan was without a local DM even though I've been there a hundred times before.

 

[teknitroxdiver]

I didn't say what he did was unsafe. I said he had put himself in an unsafe area or situation.

That's saying exactly the same thing.


How is a shore dive in Cozumel different from a shore dive you might do where you live in California?

 

[TheUWPhotographer.com]

That's saying exactly the same thing. How is a shore dive in Cozumel different from a shore dive you might do where you live in California?

I haven't shore dived in CA in many years. I always dive from the boats. We are just as much at risk of getting hit by a boat here as anywhere. Probably even more because the water here is not clear, and its harder to hear underwater because of our thick wetsuit hoods. We don't do drift diving like in Cozumel, and we swim back to the boat. We never have a guide in CA. So I would say its safe to say I am putting myself into a dangerous situation every time I dive here. I would not dive in a heavy traffic area but if I did, and found myself in a similar situation, my experience would tell me to handle it differently than what you did. Yes, I would probably come to the surface and yell obscenities to the boat, but I would also take responsibility for my being there in the first place.

 

[Backscatter]

I personally would not be comfortable diving in the area where Jonathan was without a local DM even though I've been there a hundred times before.

Fair enough, I have not been there, so I will respect your opinion on that. It is, however, in my mind the same thing as saying that TND was diving in an unsafe manner because he chose to dive without a DM.

From Aqua Safari:

"So many tangents. so much ventilating."

Mr. Horn, for better or worse, the subject was raised on this board and the whole point is to air out various opinions and learn from each others experiences (good and bad). I respected you for recognizing that an incident occurred, that it was not a positive one, and that ways to prevent future occurrences should be found, without regard to who was at fault (at least that's how I interpreted your posts).

That position, I think, is what garnered the approval and appreciation of those who have been following this situation. I would be disappointed to see you back away from the positive actions you have taken or otherwise equivocate on your earlier statements.

 

[teknitroxdiver]

I haven't shore dived in CA in many years. I always dive from the boats. We are just as much at risk of getting hit by a boat here as anywhere. Probably even more because the water here is not clear, and its harder to hear underwater because of our thick wetsuit hoods. We don't do drift diving like in Cozumel, and we swim back to the boat. We never have a guide in CA. So I would say its safe to say I am putting myself into a dangerous situation every time I dive here. I would not dive in a heavy traffic area but if I did, and found myself in a similar situation, my experience would tell me to handle it differently than what you did. Yes, I would probably come to the surface and yell obscenities to the boat, but I would also take responsibility for my being there in the first place.

So it's not that shore diving in Cozumel at a known dive site is dangerous, but rather that because you never do dives like that it is dangerous for YOU. I can respect that.

An example: I am currently taking an IANTD Trimix course. After I finish that course, I will be capable of planning and executing trimix dives to over 330'. If I were to plan and properly execute, say, a 250' dive, this would not be exceptionally dangerous for me, because I have the proper training and equipment. However, if a recreational divemaster were to attempt to accompany me on this dive, it would be incredibly dangerous for him/her, as that person would not have the training to pull it off.