Angela Orlich Testimony

[BarryNL]

You are playing detective here. Why call her statements into question when you know very little about what really happened. Because of the magnitude of this reported crime, I would give her the benefit of the doubt until the evidence suggest otherwise. It is traumatic enough for her without other people "guessing" on what happened. The point is that important evidence was lost by the authorities not investigating this reported crime properly. She didn't have her day in court as she should have.

It's difficult to say for a single case, and difficult to gather accurate statistics for this sort of thing, but best estimates are that only around 10% of sexual attack reports are false (and only 2.5% of reports by children). Therefore, I'd be inclined to believe the story until there's some reason not to.

 

[Jeff Toorish]

It's difficult to say for a single case, and difficult to gather accurate statistics for this sort of thing, but best estimates are that only around 10% of sexual attack reports are false (and only 2.5% of reports by children). Therefore, I'd be inclined to believe the story until there's some reason not to.

Where did you get these numbers?

Jeff

 

[BarryNL]

Where did you get these numbers?

Jeff

I forget exactly where the 10% comes from (i.e. can't be bothered to look up). The reference for the 2.5% figure is: Oates, R. K., Jones, D. P. H., Denson, D., Sirotnak, A., Gary, N. and Krugman, R. D. (2000) ‘Erroneous concerns about child sexual abuse’, Child Abuse & Neglect, vol. 24, pp. 149–57

 

[grassyknoll]

Try to convince this guy that underwater is not a really good place to stage an assault:

>>Jeff Doland was arrested by authorities with the Attorney General’s Child Predator CyberCrime Unit after he flew to Miami, believing he was going to meet a mother of two girls, ages nine and 12 years old, and would pay the woman $550 to forcibly submerge the children under water until they became unconscious.

<snip>

Doland, of Uniontown, Ohio, approached the &#8220;woman&#8221; online and told her that he would pay her to allow him to dunk the girls, describing dunking as forcibly submerging someone under water until he or she is generally unconscious, then raising the person out of the water. He claimed he &#8220;liked watching the bubbles&#8221; and went on to send the undercover agent explicit images of child torture as examples of what he proposed to do to the two young children.<<
News Release - Ohio Man Arrested, Charged with Attempting to Purchase Two Children for Sexual Torture

I know nothing about the Orlich case, other than what I have read in this thread - I do, however, know that individuals who sexually assault other individuals often have an exaggerated sense of invulnerability that permits them to think they can get away with all sorts of things that seem objectively stupid.

Pre-drowned victims are not what I would call an "Undewater Assault".

only around 10% of sexual attack reports are false

Which is great if you're accused numbers 1-9, but sucks if you're accused number 10....

 

[NancyLynn]

Pre-drowned victims are not what I would call an "Undewater Assault".

Which is great if you're accused numbers 1-9, but sucks if you're accused number 10....

They were no more pre-drowned than Orlich was, according to the statement quoted from Good Morning America:

On Good Morning America this morning they reported Ms Orlich Testified in Congress she booked a scuba dive on a cruise line in cozumel and the instructor tried to turn off her air and sexually assult her. She says she reported it to the line and they did nothing. Any truth to this allegation?

Dunking and holding a child underwater so they can't breathe, v. turning off her air on someone who is already underwater (and keeping her there) doesn't seem that much different to me - if it is creating a near drowning that generates the sexual kick the aggressor is seeking. (In case you didn't know, rapists generally get their sexual high not from the sex act, but from the exercise of power over their victim - the sex act is just part of the weapon)

 

[BarryNL]

Which is great if you're accused numbers 1-9, but sucks if you're accused number 10....

Well, that's why courts tend to want more evidence. Fortunately we don't send people to prison based on statistical likelihoods. It does mean that a lot of people get away with this sort of crime though.

 

[grassyknoll]

Quote:
Originally Posted by grassyknoll
Pre-drowned victims are not what I would call an "Undewater Assault".

Which is great if you're accused numbers 1-9, but sucks if you're accused number 10....

They were no more pre-drowned than Orlich was, according to the statement quoted from Good Morning America:

You are totally missing the point, asking someone if you can "pre-drown" their kids in a bathtub is a Whole lot different than diving down to 60fsw with them and assaulting them underwater (you may have seen too many underwater fight scenes on Sea Hunt, but it isn't as easy as old Lloyd made it seem). Other than there was water involved in both scenarios, they bear little resemblance to one another, unless you just want to point out that there are sickos out there. If on the other hand, you mean to imply that Orlich's alleged assailant had the same sort of fetish as Mr. Doland, you are either one of the most astute analytical criminal psychologists of our time, or you are simply reading waaaaaaaaaaaaay more into the account than is factually presented.

Since I don't know whether an assault took place or not (and you don't either), I will stick to discussing the scuba related elements of the account and leave the criminal issues to an adjudicator.

My original question was really questioning whether at 60fsw someone could get narced enough that it could trigger s scenario where panic set in, in which case could an instructor's efforts to physically restrain the driver be misinterpreted?

 

[Kingpatzer]

My original question was really questioning whether at 60fsw someone could get narced enough that it could trigger s scenario where panic set in, in which case could an instructor's efforts to physically restrain the driver be misinterpreted?

Narced enough to hallucinate it?

I doubt it.

Scared enough to panic, and then dumb/devious enough to think up a story to tell your friends to explain why you've got a scratch mark on your breast and the cahones to try and turn that story into a court settlement? That I can believe.

 

[grassyknoll]

Narced enough to hallucinate it?

I doubt it.

Scared enough to panic, and then dumb/devious enough to think up a story to tell your friends to explain why you've got a scratch mark on your breast and the cahones to try and turn that story into a court settlement? That I can believe.

Maybe not narced enough to hallucinate, but what if it indeed triggered some sort of panic, could the actions of the instructor trying to restrain her be mistaken by her as an assault? For those that are rescue trained or have dealt with paniced divers at depth, have you ever gotten physical enough where this seems plausible?

 

[NancyLynn]

Y
Since I don't know whether an assault took place or not (and you don't either), I will stick to discussing the scuba related elements of the account and leave the criminal issues to an adjudicator.

Actually, this subthread started when I responded to your assertion that it was an illogical place for an attack - I believe a criminal issue, rather than a scuba related element.

My only point, illustrated by a specific example, is that whether you or I think a location is logical has nothing to do with whether or not an assault actually occurred, because guys who carry out sexual assaults aren't bound by the same logic you and I use.