Angela Orlich Testimony

[Lead_carrier]

Yes, I understand that. What it does not say is that he was her diving buddy, and so far as I know, a dive instructor isn't going to take a single new student, especially out of a large group of divers, 60 ft under water for a lesson.

Which leads me back to my original question: Where was her buddy? Where were the other divers?

And now I want to know why she followed him to that depth; the whole situation would be awfully suspicious to me; was she present when the other divers were prepping for the dive? Did she notice them putting on wetsuits? Why didn't she question the process?

Look, I'm not saying any of this makes her any less of a victim, but there are so many holes in her story that a good attourney is going to tear her to pieces when she goes to court.

I have run into a few instructors that will take students, and I use that word because that is was I understand she was, down to and past 60 ft. Especially outside of the US. And I have seen and had students that will follow the instructor wherever.

As far as holes in the stories, your orginal reply was,

Here is my question on the subject: If this happened in 2003, the Halcyon BCD system (which is just an inflatable back piece with hookups for an air tank, if you guys have seen them), and other such BCDs, were not widely used (if they were even around at all at that time), and especially not by cruise lines or other dive tour companies.
Other BCDs which I've seen make access to the swimsuit virtually impossible, but she states he removed her swim top, though there is nothing about this guy touching or removing her BCD...so what exactly is going on here? Am I missing something

Nothing was said about a Halcyon, or removing her top. It said pulled her top down. I will guarantee you that is VERY possible. Don't believe me? Being the "attorney" type that's wanting to poke holes in the argument, I would suggest an in water demo.

As far as her story being true or not. I have no idea but I do know that in Mexico many of the natives know that they are virtually untouchable because we're on their turf and under their jurisdiction and laws.

 

[Gdog]

The story as told is not believable. Claiming that someone was taking a reg out of their mouth and trying to undress and bite a person struggling with them at depth, while turning off their air is an outrageous claim. Outrageous claims may be true, but require a ****-load more evidentiary support to believe beyond "he said/she said." Meanwhile, the woman is making claims not against the dive operation, but against the cruise line, which has much deeper pockets.

The story as presented is not believable.

What is believable is that this lady sees a way to make a buck and is trying to do so.

I agree......although that is just my uneducated opinion......

 

[SnakeRiverPirate]

I don't see RCCL's responsibility in this. If it happened off of their vessel it is not their problem.

Should they aid a client in reporting a crime? Sure, but failure to do that would be a customer relations issue, not an issue of covering up a crime. I don't think that this rises to the level of their being negligent in a law suit.

Is she also suing the dive operator? If she is only going after the cruise line, she loses a heap of credibility with me.

Now for a rather naive question. Are there people who actually engage in sexual congress while using dive gear? This would seem cumbersome and impractical to me, hardly a place for an attempted assault. But, stranger things have happened.

 

[carldarl]

I'm not an attorney but... If the dive trip was booked through the cruise line things change. It can be argued that the trip was indeed a RCCL trip and the Dive Op was actining as a contractor employed by the cruise line. All moneys were paid to the cruise line and that is where the liability would lie.

Another direction would be if the line sold and booked the trip they were acting as an agent for the Dive OP and therefore would again have some exposure. Either way if she were to sue them thay are still out the money to defend themselves.

If however the trip was booked directly with the DO then the cruise line is nothing more than a large taxi.

Just a thought...

I don't see RCCL's responsibility in this. If it happened off of their vessel it is not their problem.

Should they aid a client in reporting a crime? Sure, but failure to do that would be a customer relations issue, not an issue of covering up a crime. I don't think that this rises to the level of their being negligent in a law suit.

Is she also suing the dive operator? If she is only going after the cruise line, she loses a heap of credibility with me.

Now for a rather naive question. Are there people who actually engage in sexual congress while using dive gear? This would seem cumbersome and impractical to me, hardly a place for an attempted assault. But, stranger things have happened.

 

[kmcneer]

I have seen plenty of new divers break the water acting crazy. I beleive she was confused as to what he was doing.

 

[opalobsidian]

I googled Angela Orlich and found her story on the webiste internationalcruisevictims.org...

Angela Orlich - Cruise Ship Sexual Assault Victim

Gotta say, considering things that have happened to me over the years, her story sounds totally believable.

Now here's the story

Angela Orlich

In January 2003, I decided to go on a Royal Caribbean cruise with several of my friends. Our group consisted of approximately 40 individuals who worked at a local hospital, where I was also employed.

During the cruise, I purchased a shore excursion, which was promoted and sold to me while on the Royal Caribbean cruise ship. This excursion was to a resort in Cozumel, Mexico, which included scuba diving. Little did I know that it would result in such a horrifying experience…

I had previously taken scuba lessons in Massachusetts, but I had not yet been certified, as I am very claustrophobic and the Atlantic waters were too murky for certification. I thought it would be a good idea to take additional lessons in the clear waters of Cozumel. The dive instructor, Alfonso Aranda Gomez, who works for Aviomar Group, a corporate company that includes Playasol Park, told me that he was a PADI Master Instructor. Although I asked for a wetsuit, the dive instructor told me that it was not necessary. Since I was nervous, I had also asked not to go very deep.

During the dive, the instructor took me (alone) to a depth of approximately 60 feet. I did not want to go that deep. We stayed under water longer than I wanted and I became tired. While still under water, the dive instructor began to rub his hands over my body and molest me. He grabbed my buttocks and ran his hands up and down my legs. I shook my head “NO” and began to panic, but I tried to maintain my composure. I motioned to return to the surface. I grabbed the rope to get back up to the boat, trying to get away from him, but he grabbed me and began to pull me back down. I tried to fight him off, but he persisted to molest me. Then, he turned off the air on my tank! He pulled my top down (I was wearing a two-piece bathing suit) and bit my breast. I was terrified. At this point, we were about 30 feet under water. I feared that I would die, my body would never be found, and no one would know what happened to me.

Finally, I managed to get back to the surface and returned to my group. I was so frightened that my friends thought a shark had attacked me. I was horrified, shaking, and crying. My friends were very upset and tried to find a police officer, but to no avail.

When I returned to the Royal Caribbean ship, I reported what had happened to me. I could not believe that something like this could happen to me, during a cruise. I didn’t know what to do. I explained what happened to a cruise employee (Jessica), who coordinated the passengers’ activities. I made a report to the Security Officer and was seen by the ship’s doctor.

The excursion company told me that the diving instructor would be fired; however, I wanted him to be criminally prosecuted. When we returned to Miami, there were no FBI Agents to interview me or any other federal agents. I took it upon myself to report what happened to the U.S. Consulate’s Office in Mexico (Anne Harris). In June 2003, in an attempt to have the dive instructor prosecuted, I returned to Mexico. I made a formal declaration against him, but the criminal prosecution has gone nowhere. This has been a very frustrating and fruitless experience.

My life changed on the day that I was attacked. I could not sleep. I was traumatized and forced to seek the assistance from a doctor and a counselor.

The “instructor” had lied to me about being a “PADI Dive Master”. He deceived me by telling me that it was not necessary to wear a wetsuit, so that he could take me into deep water and molest me. I do NOT want this to happen to anyone else and would like to see justice served. I am very frustrated that I had to seek justice alone, and even then, nothing has been accomplished so far.

There are so many unanswered questions:

How many other victims, like me, have not survived their attacks at the hands of this same individual?

Who will be his next victim?

Is this instructor still employed as a scuba diving instructor? If so, by what company?

Are cruise lines still promoting excursions from companies, where he may be employed?

Has anyone ever checked the records of missing scuba diving tourists in Cozumel?

I believe cruise lines should:

Make certain that when THEY sell you an excursion, the activity is SAFE

WARN you in advance that you are really “ON YOUR OWN” in a foreign country

Be required to IMMEDIATELY notify the FBI, so that justice may be served

 

[SNorman]

That's the same attitude that made it virtually impossible to obtain a conviction for rape until recent years. Thank goodness times have changed, and in most places it is possible to report a sexual assault without having it dismissed out of hand as some story you dreamed up to make trouble for some guy you were mad at or wanted to make trouble for.

Eh, actually with the large amount of false rape accusations (something like 25-50% depending on where you are) these days I think most people are taking reports of "rape" with a grain of salt. Of course "most people" doesn't include the media and some prosecutors, who assume guilty until proven innocent

 

[NancyLynn]

Eh, actually with the large amount of false rape accusations (something like 25-50% depending on where you are) these days I think most people are taking reports of "rape" with a grain of salt. Of course "most people" doesn't include the media and some prosecutors, who assume guilty until proven innocent

Actually, the reported false reporting rates range from 2% to 50%, depending on which study you want to look at - not where you are - and which reports are labeled false (even if the basis for deciding the report was false was merely that it did not result in a conviction).

Overall, the false accusation rate isn't any higher than for any other crime (http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/svfacts.htm ), particularly if you take into account the 46%-80% of rapes which are never reported - i.e. no accusation is ever made. (Even on the low end of the range, the under-reporting rate far higher than for other major crimes).

In part the under-reporting is because when reports of rape are made, the survivor's integrity and morailityare often immediately questioned. I suspect I have been a direct observer of a lot more responses to rape reports than you have (100-200 over a period of 10 years). Although things have gotten considerably better recently, the responses by many police and, in some instances medical care givers, certainly do not encourage a survivor who is already in an emotionally fragile state to make a report. (This is not the case in reports of other crimes - if there are questions/suggestons as to the integrity or morality of someon who has been beaten, or has been the victim of car theft, the questions come only after an investigation which casts doubt on the original report.)

I have said repeatedly in this thread (and it has been repeatedly ignored) that I know nothing about this particular incident other than the published reports I have seen. I don't make any assumptions as to whether it happened or not. My responses have been solely directed to the assumptions/assertions by some posters that it didn't happen (or couldn't have happened) because it was not, to their minds, a logical place or manner of attack. Rapists are not particularly logical creatures, as you and I understand logic.

That said,the general setup fits well with the most comon rape pattern - attacking someone in a situation which maximizes the attacker's control over the survivor (ability to shut off air flow, and better ability because of experience to control position in the water). I wouldn't rule the report out as false (or probably false) based on details of the report that that don't seem to fit how a logical person might plan an attack (to avoid being caught, for example, or to make the attack easier to carry out).

 

[SNorman]

Actually, the reported false reporting rates range from 2% to 50%, depending on which study you want to look at - not where you are - and which reports are labeled false (even if the basis for deciding the report was false was merely that it did not result in a conviction).

I really don't want to take this thread on a tangent and argue about this, and just for the record I'm not saying that this case sounds like a false accusation.

By "depending on where you are" I meant this: Studies seem to show false rape accusations are much higher at universities and in the military, for instance. As for the 2%, that figure was released by a feminist organization and I haven't seen any real numbers to back it up.

Either way, these days the accused gets drug through the mud (for example Duke Lacross team) before guilt is established so in some ways the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction.

 

[Ayisha]

Why are moderators not moderating this thread?! The comments on this thread have been very disrespectful to women in general and to victims of sexual assault. No one appointed us judge or jury and we are privy to little information to conclusively validate or refute. It appears there are axes to grind which may or may not have anything to do with this case...