Agencies

[djanni]

That's quite a marketing claim. It also proves that no matter which agency is being discussed, they are all out to get more divers for that agency. Since any of the majors can make this same claim, it shows that marketing is a driving force for NAUI, just as much as any other agency.

As for everyone on the board knowing this information, I don't think that's an accurate statement. Some things are funny, but this needed to be clarified.

People on the Board also need to know that NAUI is a democracy. Each member has one vote and for NAUI to get a concensus on anything is like pulling teeth. The reason I'm bringing this up, is that one poster was talking about the RSTC. Any changes to the NAUI doctrine have to be brought to the membership to approve. I'm sure the RSTC would welcome NAUI with open arms, but any change for an 'A' type scuba instructor creates strife within the ranks. For NAUI to grow, (besides in a few geographical areas) a position for someone who can make decisions on behalf of the membership, at the top level, could be created. LOL

The best way to change something is when you are working with the system.

Wrong post.

 

[spectrum]

NWGratefulDiver...that was one of the best comments I've ever seen on this topic before, you delivered factual info in a fair and unbasied manner.

As far as distribution of divers, the most common agency is PADI. By a lot. Next is SSI, followed by NAUI. I've seen a few (like less than 1 per year) of YMCA, BSAC and never met a diver who was certified with PDIC, SDI, TDI. That distribution held for both the Caribbean and Hawaii.

PDIC Rah!

 

[djanni]

Don, was this a full doff and don? PADI does do a bc off and on at the bottom. At least my ow class did. The YMCA requires all gear- mask, fins, weightbelt, and bc to be taken off. Placed on the bottom of the pool and then an ascent is affected without the gear to the surface. After getting a few breaths the diver then freedives to the gear, retrieves the reg and proceeds to put everything back on. With me as I demo it, the first thing after the reg is the weight belt. This gives me stability. Some people go for the mask and if they are not "sinkers" to begin with this usually results in the reg being ripped out of their mouth as they float up to the surface.

And I agree also that the Y program would be sverely diminished if it were condensed into a couple days. There is so much interaction between the student and instructor that for me was not present in my PADI class since alot of the material was learned at home on my own. I thought it was fine. But I remember a few days that I would have liked to have had someone explain some things to me. It would have made it much easier.

Tuesday night a young lady in the class I'm currently teaching started to have a little difficulty with the dive table concepts. She's 13. It took me all of 2 minutes to put an example up on the board that caused the lights to go on and insured that the homework I emailed the group will not cause problems. Since we are free to design our lesson plans( there are guidelines and I use them) but I'm allowed to add material from any source to get the lesson across. As long as standards are not violated and safety is not compromised I can cite PADI, NAUI, SDI, CIA, etc to be sure the student has a firm grasp of the lesson being taught. For physiology I use anatomical charts purchased from a store that usually has school teachers as customers. These are not full on med school grade but have all the detail necessary to explain embolisms, bends, expansion injuries and illustrate where the bubbles accumulate and grow to cause the pain that causes people to contort into various conditions trying to relieve it.

BC & weight belt only but both together. We had to keep hold of the belt to stay down but didn't have to surface and then go back down. Reg stayed in mouth except that once the gear was off we had to remove the reg and show it to the instructor - see, it's out of my mouth, then put it back in and the gear back on.

 

[brutus_scuba]

As to working with the RSTC ... I prefer NAUI's higher standards.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

I agree that NAUI has great standards, I also will agree with a post you made earlier the RSTC is not a governing body, they are a council, they provide credibility in some way for small agencies, but NAUI has no need for them, and the RSTC has zero authority.

That being said, the RSTC would not require NAUI to remove standards, you can have high standards and be a member of the RSTC. I agree the minimum standards of the RSTC are insultingly low. However, why not join an organization and lead the industry towards standardization of terminology and dive tables, and encourage other agencies to raiser their standards.

It seems to me NAUI is building a NAUI culture behind diving just as PADI tries to. I believe NAUI is a good agency, but don't undertand how the RSTC would move them backwards.

 

[sweatfrog]

the Board of Directors makes those decisions. "Democracy" in this case means that members vote for the BoD.

Even with that being the case, the BoD have an agenda. Their constituency can vote them out, if the BoD doesn't do what the membership wants.

There's no advantage to them joining the organization ... so why would they?

You and I are just small cogs in the machine. Saying there is no advantage to NAUI joining the RSTC is like saying a retailer group, or a regional show won't work. First, you have to try it.

You sure seem to have a lot of misinformation about NAUI ... out of curiosity, what's your affiliation with the organization?

I was certified NAUI in 1976. I have many friends who are NAUI Instructors and I trust their judgement more than someone on the internet. BTW, my research on the other thread where you got on your high horse showed that you, not I was misinformed about how many dives for OW divers. It's time for you to do some research.

I'm coming up on six years as a member of NAUI, and in that time I've seen plenty of innovation and growth. I've also found it easy to access and talk to whomever at NAUI headquarters I've wanted to contact.

Thats great. Good competition brings out the best in other agencies. I've had issues and was able to get through to the Headquarters of the agency in question to answer my questions, also.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Even with that being the case, the BoD have an agenda. Their constituency can vote them out, if the BoD doesn't do what the membership wants.

Of course the BoD has an agenda ... that's what BoD's do. How else can they run the company?

What does that have to do with the RSTC?

You and I are just small cogs in the machine. Saying there is no advantage to NAUI joining the RSTC is like saying a retailer group, or a regional show won't work. First, you have to try it.

NAUI was one of the founding members of the RSTC. They decided that being a member wasn't to their advantage and they got out. So ... um ... they DID try it.

Why should that concern you ... since you're not a member of NAUI?

I was certified NAUI in 1976. I have many friends who are NAUI Instructors and I trust their judgement more than someone on the internet. BTW, my research on the other thread where you got on your high horse showed that you, not I was misinformed about how many dives for OW divers. It's time for you to do some research.

Yeah ... right ... according to your research, I'm an SDI instructor ...

You made a broad, sweeping statement that all agencies require only four dives to certify for OW. I was in error on a single data point refuting your statement. The rest of my data was accurate. Your statement is not factually correct. NAUI requires five ... as do some of the other agencies.

Thats great. Good competition brings out the best in other agencies. I've had issues and was able to get through to the Headquarters of the agency in question to answer my questions, also.

You seem to be laboring under the mistaken notion that we are somehow in competition. We are not ... at least, I am not. I simply take exception to you making misleading and false statements about NAUI ... it's clear to any NAUI professional reading this board that you don't know what you're talking about.

For a guy who's hypersensitive about anyone saying anything bad about PADI, you sure don't seem to have a problem making false remarks about other training agencies ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It seems to me NAUI is building a NAUI culture behind diving just as PADI tries to. I believe NAUI is a good agency, but don't undertand how the RSTC would move them backwards.

My involvement on the subject of RSTC was not intended to speak for NAUI ... it was simply to clarify some misconceptions you made about the RSTC, and to correct some some false information you and sweatfrog made about NAUI. I think it's important when you make statements about organizations on a public forum to represent them accurately and fairly.

As to your comment about NAUI building a culture ... every organization does that. NAUI's culture is defined by a credo and statement of ethics that are the first two documents published in their Standards and Procedures manual.

I won't go into it here ... it's several pages long. But I recently had the opportunity to discuss those two documents in-depth with a DM candidate I'm training ... and the reasons why NAUI would not choose to be a part of an organization that promotes inadequate training standards became increasingly obvious as we discussed what they mean.

The RSTC was a good concept ... but in practice it proved to be an organization that was not consistent with the goals and philosophy that NAUI wanted to pursue. For this reason, NAUI chose not to participate.

As a member of NAUI, I'm completely comfortable with that decision. Why be a member of a club that represents something you don't believe in?

That's about all I want to say on the subject. If you've a concern about it, I think you should contact someone at NAUI HQ for clarification.

I will only ask that before you make statements like "NAUI was removed as a member of the RSTC" or "for NAUI to get a concensus on anything is like pulling teeth" that y'all first get some knowledge of the organization, how it works, and what it represents ... because all statements like that do is promote misinformation and negative stereotypes that have no basis in reality.

That's really a disservice to the organization, and to the people reading this forum ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[sweatfrog]

You made a broad, sweeping statement that all agencies require only four dives to certify for OW. I was in error on a single data point refuting your statement. The rest of my data was accurate.

Your research is flawed. I'm just giving you one MORE example of your errors below. You figure out the rest of your post.

IANTD requires five scuba dives, six if you're including nitrox with the OW certification (5 or 6 dives total).

The program must include a minimum of 80 minutes of OW bottom time completed within 4 to 6 scuba dives and, even if the time requirements are exceeded, a minimum of 4 scuba dives must be made. For qualification as a Nitrox Diver, two dives must be on EANx.

I think it's important when you make statements about organizations on a public forum to represent them accurately and fairly.

On that we agree.

I will only ask that before you make statements like "for NAUI to get a concensus on anything is like pulling teeth" that y'all first get some knowledge of the organization, how it works, and what it represents ... because all statements like that do is promote misinformation and negative stereotypes that have no basis in reality.

Please think about doing the same thing. Twisting information to fit your parameters has no positive conotations.

For a guy who's hypersensitive about anyone saying anything bad about PADI, you sure don't seem to have a problem making false remarks about other training agencies ...

I'm hypersensitve? Maybe the pot should quit calling the kettle black.

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

All of the agencies pretty much require the same skill sets to be taught to open water students. (When I say ALL, I mean the agencies that are members of the RSTC). I have held instructor cards with NASDS, SSI, and SDI and the most important thing to me is how well their system fits my business. It's not a matter of which agency is safest or the best to me.

Although they have their subtle differences and different looks, these are the things that matter the most to me.

SDI/TDI - I am currently teaching students using International Trainings Online based system. I love it, my students love it, and we get to save a few trees by having a more paperless system. I admire the fact that they have not hesitated to be the leaders in developing distance learning in our industry. A lot of people are complaining about online training, but that's just because they don't understand how to leverage it.

SSI - SSI is all about selling academic materials and paper. They teach all the safe scuba skills, but the Open Water book is all about Selling Equipment. NASDS had the very best Open Water Manual. It was very informative and help the instructor explain the importance of equipment. It really helped sell equipment, but it sold through the education aspect. The new SSI OW manual has great pictures and illustrations but it seems like a used car salesman wrote it. My students used to laugh at how corny it got at points.

SSI has been strongly against using any form of online training for the last 5 or 6 years, but sources have told me something is in development. They have a new President and Director of Education and will eventually have to have an online element just so their not the only ones left behind.

PADI and NAUI - They both allow independent instructors to teach scuba! This is why they are so big! PADI is excellent at Name brand recognition and selling stuff! I have never been a PADI pro, but I have a lot of respect for them as a company.

The others I really don't know too much about, just the key players.

 

[Thalassamania]

With respect to the governmental and military agencies that certify through NAUI, the point is that they could not run their programs in a PADI or SSI framework. NAUI does not require a specific text, nor does it force a system of "skill modules" on the instructor dictating the skills and the order in which the skills are done. Thus a training program that has been developed, over many years, for a specific purpose (e.g., Science, Military, Public Safety) can continue with little or no modification and the instructor is able to offer NAUI Certification since the special program requirements are way in excess of NAUI's.

I have issued NAUI cards SOLELY AS A CONVENIENCE to divers in my 100 hour research diving course, very much like a friend of mine who was a BUDS instructor and offered LA County cards to anyone in the class who wanted them, so that they did not have to draw attention to themselves if they wanted to dive just for the fun of it. In neither case was that some recognition of NAUI per se, only an appreciation of NAUI's tradition of academic freedom and willingness to trust its instructors.