Agencies

[nereas]

I did not realize LA Co was that diverse. I guess my instructors were all Florida cave boys, and therefore they only gave us the choice of NAUI or nothing!

 

[nereas]

...I was certified NAUI in 1976. ...

New guy, huh!

 

[Walter]

All of the agencies pretty much require the same skill sets to be taught to open water students. (When I say ALL, I mean the agencies that are members of the RSTC).

You are mistaken. While they all teach certain skills, some teach skills that others leave out.

the most important thing to me is how well their system fits my business. It's not a matter of which agency is safest or the best to me.

Unfortunately, that's a very common attitude.

 

[Thalassamania]

All of the agencies pretty much require the same skill sets to be taught to open water students. (When I say ALL, I mean the agencies that are members of the RSTC). I have held instructor cards with NASDS, SSI, and SDI and the most important thing to me is how well their system fits my business. It's not a matter of which agency is safest or the best to me.

So you're a ... , well ... lets just say more interested in your business plan than in diver quality or safety.

Although they have their subtle differences and different looks, these are the things that matter the most to me.

The differences are far from subtle; or just a question of looks. I suspect that you are too distracted by your business model to notice the differences.

SDI/TDI - I am currently teaching students using International Trainings Online based system. I love it, my students love it, and we get to save a few trees by having a more paperless system. I admire the fact that they have not hesitated to be the leaders in developing distance learning in our industry. A lot of people are complaining about online training, but that's just because they don't understand how to leverage it.

"Leverage" it, you mean increase profitability, no?

I have no problem with people making a living teaching diving, or selling gear, or flogging an agency ... my problem is with the inherent lie that is put over on the public when people like you try to pretend that all the things that best fit your business model, wonder of wonders, also just happen to create the highest quality and best trained diver.

I did not realize LA Co was that diverse. I guess my instructors were all Florida cave boys, and therefore they only gave us the choice of NAUI or nothing!

It's not. But a BUDS Instructor who lives on the west coast is unlikely to do an ITC with any agency but NAUI or LA County. After all ... he doesn't have a business plan to go and sell out, quite the contrary.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

All of the agencies pretty much require the same skill sets to be taught to open water students. (When I say ALL, I mean the agencies that are members of the RSTC). I have held instructor cards with NASDS, SSI, and SDI and the most important thing to me is how well their system fits my business. It's not a matter of which agency is safest or the best to me.

Although they have their subtle differences and different looks, these are the things that matter the most to me.

SDI/TDI - I am currently teaching students using International Trainings Online based system. I love it, my students love it, and we get to save a few trees by having a more paperless system. I admire the fact that they have not hesitated to be the leaders in developing distance learning in our industry. A lot of people are complaining about online training, but that's just because they don't understand how to leverage it.

SSI - SSI is all about selling academic materials and paper. They teach all the safe scuba skills, but the Open Water book is all about Selling Equipment. NASDS had the very best Open Water Manual. It was very informative and help the instructor explain the importance of equipment. It really helped sell equipment, but it sold through the education aspect. The new SSI OW manual has great pictures and illustrations but it seems like a used car salesman wrote it. My students used to laugh at how corny it got at points.

SSI has been strongly against using any form of online training for the last 5 or 6 years, but sources have told me something is in development. They have a new President and Director of Education and will eventually have to have an online element just so their not the only ones left behind.

PADI and NAUI - They both allow independent instructors to teach scuba! This is why they are so big! PADI is excellent at Name brand recognition and selling stuff! I have never been a PADI pro, but I have a lot of respect for them as a company.

The others I really don't know too much about, just the key players.

While PADI may allow independent instructors they certainly don't encourage them. Indies are constantly pushed to affiliate with a "dive center". Sorry I feel more comfortable in a "dive shop". Semantics maybe but the elitism of insisting PADI pros use the term dive center just rubs me wrong. I once wrote an article that I asked my OW instructor to help me(read edit only not collaborate) with that I was going to submit to dive training magazine. By the time I got it back from him it was so butchered and full of PADI propoganda I said the hell with it and threw it away.
Fact is PADI does support independent instructors but grudgingly. Indies generally do not buy enough materials to make it worth it for PADI to service them. Hence the price structure of professional materials and the purchasing of student materials. There are 7 levels of pricing. member price whoch is what indies pay. Then shops that do certain numbers get breaks based on their sales. A new DM usually gets a 90 day offer of level 3 pricing. This is roughly 30% off member price. The shop I got DM thru was going to sell me my instructor manual for 5% below member. He did not realize the 30% break. Got mad when I bought it direct since that would have been a nice addition to his supply order. Smaller shops sometimes struggle to maintain pricing structure. IF they fall below by a few bucks for a quarter or two then they may get dropped to the next level. I know one shop that was level 1. Just not alot of educational sales. He has an independent instructor that went thru one of the large IDC's. They offer their graduates level three for as long as they are active. Shop now buys thru the instructor instead of PADI. In fact he's ready to throw PADI out. His primary instructor just crossed over to NAUI and I'm going to be teaching some Y classes using his facility.

The last time the PADI rep was in he told me he got such grief about his "numbers" that it was like he was supposed to go out and grab people off the street and bring em in. My ex-wife worked for 7-11. they did the same thing. If customer counts were low(sales) they'd fire the whole store crew!?

I belive it was SSI that shared the stage with PADI at DEMA in a marketing workshop. Don't be surprised if some kind of merger/reciprocating deal comes out of this. They'll be like the WalMart of dive training agencies. ANd they'll not be the only ones left out if they don't go on line. I don't see NAUI, and really don't see YMCA, offering any kind of on-line training. I'm hoping these two at least never water down their standards to this level. Catering to the instant gratification crowd may bring in more money but both of these are non profit agencies. Diver safety and competency are more important than dollars. Being associated with several agencies and looking at their standards and how things are set up is why I left PADI for pro level training beyond DM, went to NAUI for their tech program, and became a YMCA instructor. Two of my PADI training bulletins were about nothing but e-learning and getting numbers up for the dive center. No new skills, no new advice on getting divers more comfortable in the water, all about bringing in the bucks. I'm keeping my DM status to help other instructors who are friends and to keep up on current training but when asked by the guy on the street or at work what agency is best for training I don't even mention PADI. I recommend YMCA of course. If they don't really want to invest the time it takes for a Y (or NAUI) cert I suggest they reconsider taking up the sport.

And as for the key players statement- Seems the real key players would be the ones who wrote the standards and got the ball rolling. BSAC, La County, YMCA, and NAUI. The oldest ones may not be the biggest but they are still around even without watering down their training.

 

[sweatfrog]

It's not. But a BUDS Instructor who lives on the west coast is unlikely to do an ITC with any agency but NAUI or LA County.

I personally know prior BUD's Instructors who were PADI Instructors, at the same time.

Fact is PADI does support independent instructors but grudgingly.

Very true and PADI, as well as SSI facilities grudgingly work with Independents.

There are 7 levels of pricing.

Actually PADI lowered it to 6 levels.

Smaller shops sometimes struggle to maintain pricing structure.

I don't know what you determine as smaller, because Pro Dive just went under.

Don't be surprised if some kind of merger/reciprocating deal comes out of this. They'll be like the WalMart of dive training agencies. I don't see NAUI, and really don't see YMCA, offering any kind of on-line training. I'm hoping these two at least never water down their standards to this level. Catering to the instant gratification crowd may bring in more money but both of these are non profit agencies. Diver safety and competency are more important than dollars.

I was talking to the NAUI rep for this territory and he said NAUI will have some kind of online course out, by the end of the year.

I was watching the Today show the other day and they interviewed the CEO for Excon. He made no appologies for making money for his stockholders. If no money is made in this industry, no equipment advances will be made and Instructors will look for other places to use their education.

Safety and competency are important. Has safety decreased with the changes in diver education? If not, then safety (although very important) should not be touted as a venue to promote one agency over another.

 

[Walter]

Has safety decreased with the changes in diver education?

Yes. It's decreased to the point where many "divers" are not able to dive without a DM holding their hand, sometimes literally.

 

[Thalassamania]

I personally know prior BUD's Instructors who were PADI Instructors, at the same time.

But you may not issue a PADI or SSI card to a BUDS graduate or National Parks, NOAA, University 100 hour, etc., unless you use the mossback route. You may issue a NAUI or an LA County card.

If no money is made in this industry, no equipment advances will be made and Instructors will look for other places to use their education.

Safety and competency are important. Has safety decreased with the changes in diver education? If not, then safety (although very important) should not be touted as a venue to promote one agency over another.

So ... you're telling me that the only way to get improved gear is to tolerate lies to the public about the adequacy of training, running courses that do not actually prepare people to dive independently and justifying it all with sham standards groups like the RSTC whilst rewriting the dictionary to suit and having an astronomical drop out rate.

I do not happen to agree. If you do agree ... we should have a conversation about this bridge I'd like to sell.

 

[sweatfrog]

But you may not issue a PADI or SSI card to a BUDS graduate or National Parks, NOAA, University 100 hour, etc., unless you use the mossback route. You may issue a NAUI or an LA County card.

You're right about PADI, I don't know about SSI.

Yes. It's decreased to the point where many "divers" are not able to dive without a DM holding their hand, sometimes literally.

DM's have held peoples hands for decades. I'm definitely not saying that's a good thing, but people go on 'trust me' dives all the time. The DM makes better money by holding a hand, so they'll do whatever they can for that tip. Some hotshot putting his tank on backwards is not someone you will make fun of, in front of him. Especially when he gives the DM $100 after the dive.

So ... you're telling me that the only way to get improved gear is to tolerate lies to the public about the adequacy of training, running courses that do not actually prepare people to dive independently and justifying it all with sham standards groups like the RSTC whilst rewriting the dictionary to suit and having an astronomical drop out rate.

Boy, did you get up on the wrong side of bed, or what?

You remember when regs with diving instructions were sold in Sears stores? You remember when you had to swim like you were in a Lifesaving class to pass the course? You remember when there was one (or no) OW dives to complete the course?

I want to train as many people as I can safely. I will not comprimise on getting the skills down pat. However, a mask scramble, or swimming from one tank to another without surfacing smells too much like harassment and there's not enough real world quality. If you think the RSTC is a sham that's your opinion and everyone has one. For you to slam their standards because you think your's are better is not professional, unless safety has been compromised. The whole industry would go south, if that happened, because there would be no more insurance available.

You're right, the drop out rate is too high. The entry rate is also too low. Why don't you figure out a constructive way to fix the problem, instead of bitching about it?

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

Quote:
Originally Posted by clint@uniquescuba.com View Post
All of the agencies pretty much require the same skill sets to be taught to open water students. (When I say ALL, I mean the agencies that are members of the RSTC). I have held instructor cards with NASDS, SSI, and SDI and the most important thing to me is how well their system fits my business. It's not a matter of which agency is safest or the best to me.

So you're a ... , well ... lets just say more interested in your business plan than in diver quality or safety.

I don't blame you for getting all over me, I should of explained my point of view a little better. I don't really want to be labeled as "One of those guys".

It's not a safety thing to me. Choosing an agency is NOT a safety thing. Safety however, is the main focus of our teaching style and not limited to the suggested techniques of training agencies. To be honest, if we were to start teaching back down to suggested standards we would be stepping back at least 10 years. This is not a slam, but we do not consider any agency to have a high enough bar set..not even close. They are what they are and next year we may be selling someone else's books, but our standard and style of teaching will most not likely change.

One example: Our students are never put on the bottom of the pool or a platform to start learning their primary skill set. Most people overweight their students, making them rocks, and then start to teach mask clearing. No wonder new students have soo many problems with neutral buoyancy. Our students learn and complete all skill sets while maintaining neutral buoyancy. The end result....flawless buoyancy in the open water. This takes more time, but thats just the way it should be.

All to often we see open water students flailing around and having problems while completing open water dives. It all tracks back to that first day of class when their instructor overweighted them on purpose, just to save a little time.

We do several other things differently in our program, but not down to standards. This is why the training agencies supposed reputation for safety is not a consideration. We are very happy with SDI/TDI right now, but we do not swear everlasting loyalty to them, just to our divers.

If we were to choose a structured training system with only the quality of training and safety reputation in mind, and leave it up to the reputation of that system, I guess we would all be making DIR divers.

Thank you all for your quick and honest replies. I will be more cautious in making quick replies myself.