Agencies

[nereas]

.... AOW doesn't give students what was taken out of the entry level class. PADI's OW and AOW combined does not produce an adequately trained diver.

Actually, it does. I have seen it work with my own eyes. A new diver needs about 7 to 9 training dives to develop basic skill sets. When you combine the PADI OW1 with the PADI AOW you get a course roughly equivalent to NAUI's, SSI's and YMCA's basic open water course.

 

[Walter]

Actually, it does. I have seen it work with my own eyes. A new diver needs about 7 to 9 training dives to develop basic skill sets. When you combine the PADI OW1 with the PADI AOW you get a course roughly equivalent to NAUI's, SSI's and YMCA's basic open water course.

PADI must have drastically changed there standards in the AOW course since my copy was published. When did they add in the rescue skills required by NAUI and YMCA (different rescue skills required by each) in their entry level classes (OW in YMCA, SCUBA Diver in NAUI) in their AOW class? When did they add skin diving to AOW? When did they add confidence building skills like bailout and doff & don to their AOW class?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Actually, it does. I have seen it work with my own eyes. A new diver needs about 7 to 9 training dives to develop basic skill sets. When you combine the PADI OW1 with the PADI AOW you get a course roughly equivalent to NAUI's, SSI's and YMCA's basic open water course.

I think I would completely understand if the PADI instructors out there took exception to that statement.

I took the YMCA's OW and AOW classes ... and I teach NAUI's OW and AOW classes ... so I have a fair idea what they involve.

As I said in my first post in this thread ... the material presented in NAUI, PADI, and YMCA OW classes is similar. What's different is in how the material is presented, and in how many checkout dives are required. The YMCA class stands out in terms of class and pool hours, but they do put a lot more emphasis on swimming and skin diving than either NAUI or PADI. And both the YMCA and NAUI require some rescue exercises in OW that I don't think PADI requires until Rescue level.

But none of that stuff gets covered by AOW by any of those three agencies ... so I just don't see the correlation.

Ultimately, how much you get out of the course will be far more influenced by how the instructor teaches the class, and by how much effort the student puts into it, than it will by any differences in agency curriculum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[nereas]

... the material presented in NAUI, PADI, and YMCA OW classes is similar. What's different is in how the material is presented, and in how many checkout dives are required. ...

Precisely.

More pool time and more open water dives with every other agency besides PADI in the OW1 (basic) course.

And that is why the PADI students suffer, because that is all that Cronin thought that they needed before Putting Another Dollar In.

And this was pointed out at his eulogy, that he truly believed that NAUI made things too difficult for the students, and that it did not take much to learn to scuba, and 4 open water dives was all.

 

[Walter]

You do not want to get into opinions of what someone did or did not believe. That's going to be a nasty can of worms.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Precisely.

More pool time and more open water dives with every other agency besides PADI in the OW1 (basic) course.

And that is why the PADI students suffer, because that is all that Cronin thought that they needed before Putting Another Dollar In.

And this was pointed out at his eulogy, that he truly believed that NAUI made things too difficult for the students, and that it did not take much to learn to scuba, and 4 open water dives was all.

Well now ... first off, I wouldn't assume that all PADI students suffer. I took a very new diver on a tour last week. For someone with very few dives he was a beautiful diver. I asked him who his OW instructor was and when he told me I recognized the person as a local PADI instructor. I complimented the young man on his skills and said his instructor obviously had done a really nice job of training him.

The agency does not teach the classes ... instructors do.

Four dives or five is less important than taking the class from an instructor who knows how to make the most of their bottom time, and knows what to emphasize, and knows how to set a good example. Those instructors teach for every agency. Unfortunately, they're a minority of the instructors in all agencies ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[sweatfrog]

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, there are lots of people who do and I respect them for it, Knowledge and experience are what make one opinion more valuable then another ...

That's correct.

you do compromise on getting the skills down pat, we all do. Its a question of knowing what to compromise on, and what to be a stickler about, and how to properly prepare a student to be able to learn the things that they will have to learn on their own, while keeping risks to a minimum.

That's also correct.

though we do swim from one tank to another without surfacing whilst buddy breathing (and there are many good reasons for doing so, not the least of which is identification of nurturant individuals that we want to recruit as future staff).

Those skills can also be accomplished in continuing education. You have a good idea who you want to recruit, by the end of your class anyway.

If that smells to you, "too much like harassment," I'd submit that you really don't know what it is that we do and why we do it. All you have to go on is old wives tales passed down through your instructors and instructor course staff from their instructors instructor course staff, all who are equally clueless. In my experience, these types love to engage in the self-aggrandizing BS by putting down that which they have neither an understanding of, or the skill to accomplish. These are people who would not know "real world quality" if it hit them in the face.

Now you're trying to insult me with your surly attitude. I went through BUD's in 68' and started diving before then. I was also a commercial diver and helped start an underwater rescue team. I've been teaching scuba for more than 28 years and teaching Instructors for 24. When I worked in a mine as a safety Inspector, "real world" experiences happened every day. That's a lot different from the land of academia.

Your profile as well as your posts indicate that you're self serving and arrogant. I know you post good things on the board, so either work within those parameters, or play with someone else. I have been harassed by the best and can still outswim most people half my age. I'm secure with my future. I hope you are enjoying Hawaii.

I'll tell you what ... when you've been part of the ANSI process (as I have, both with the Underwater Society of American and the RSTC) and as a result know what went on, and why things happened the way they did, then perhaps your opinion on the subject will of interest, until then. You're entitled to your opinion of course, for what it's worth.

and people wonder why this industry is so fragmented!

 

[Thalassamania]

Now you're trying to insult me with your surly attitude.

Hardly, I am just telling the truth as I see it. If you need to take that as an insult, I can not stop you ... feel free, but that was not my intent.

I went through BUD's in 68' and started diving before then.

What class number and who was your lead instructor?

I was also a commercial diver and helped start an underwater rescue team. I've been teaching scuba for more than 28 years and teaching Instructors for 24. When I worked in a mine as a safety Inspector, "real world" experiences happened every day. That's a lot different from the land of academia.

Now you're trying to insult me with your surly attitude. You clearly know nothing about the academic world and what the Diving Safety Officer of a major oceanographic institution is responsible for.

Your profile as well as your posts indicate that you're self serving and arrogant.

Self-serving? Naw. Arrogant? Well ... I must admit that I do not suffer fools gladly. If that is arrogant ... so be it.

I know you post good things on the board, so either work within those parameters, or play with someone else.

Who died and appointed you MOD?

I have been harassed by the best and can still outswim most people half my age.

That's nice. I can still outswim most people twice my age.

I'm secure with my future.

Good.

I hope you are enjoying Hawaii.

I am, thank you.

 

[leapfrog]

What class number and who was your lead instructor?

Since I hold both of you in high regard, for different reasons, I would like to mention that Sweatfrog's credentials are 100% genuine. Not only did he go through BUD/S in 1968, he is a Vietnam veteran and served our country with honor as a member of the UDTs. His modesty is a credit to him and IMHO he doesn't have to share this information here.

 

[Thalassamania]

I'll take your word for that, and humbly ask Sweatfrog to understand the question. Face it, if we all had a nickel for everyone who made such a claim we'd all be retired on the Riviera.