Agencies

[nereas]

Well now ... first off, I wouldn't assume that all PADI students suffer. I took a very new diver on a tour last week. For someone with very few dives he was a beautiful diver. I asked him who his OW instructor was and when he told me I recognized the person as a local PADI instructor. I complimented the young man on his skills and said his instructor obviously had done a really nice job of training him.

The agency does not teach the classes ... instructors do.

Four dives or five is less important than taking the class from an instructor who knows how to make the most of their bottom time, and knows what to emphasize, and knows how to set a good example. Those instructors teach for every agency. Unfortunately, they're a minority of the instructors in all agencies ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You have fallen into the pit of the fallacy of a false generalization, wherein the single exception to the rule justifies all the inferiority of the program.

A few college classes in logic or philosophy would help you out immensely.

[And then don't forget who invented both -- the ancient Greeks!]

 

[Walter]

And you are ignoring questions. When did PADI add all those skills to their AOW class?

 

[leapfrog]

I'll take your word for that, and humbly ask Sweatfrog to understand the question. Face it, if we all had a nickel for everyone who made such a claim we'd all be retired on the Riviera.

I thank you for that. As I posted before, I hold you both in the highest regard and I learn a great deal from your posts and your experience. I have learnt a number of things fom you, Thalassa, on SB, which have helped me to have a much more open mind and listen to people who have a wealth of knowledge and experience and have shown me that many things that I held as universal truths are open to question and constructive criticism.

On the nickel question, I agree 100%. And it's not just that particular claim. Cheez, the number of guys I've met who have dived with Jacques Cousteau, been "Combat Divers" of the particular Navy of the country they come from....wow.... I even met a guy who had been an Aviator, a SEAL and JAG. Retired aged 39. Guess he just saw too much TV!

 

[Thalassamania]

I thank you for that. As I posted before, I hold you both in the highest regard and I learn a great deal from your posts and your experience. I have learnt a number of things fom you, Thalassa, on SB, which have helped me to have a much more open mind and listen to people who have a wealth of knowledge and experience and have shown me that many things that I held as universal truths are open to question and constructive criticism.

On the nickel question, I agree 100%. And it's not just that particular claim. Cheez, the number of guys I've met who have dived with Jacques Cousteau, been "Combat Divers" of the particular Navy of the country they come from....wow.... I even met a guy who had been an Aviator, a SEAL and JAG. Retired aged 39. Guess he just saw too much TV!

Thank you, and as long as we're in mutual admiration mode, I appreciate the gentle reminder that heated differences of opinion need not be pissing contests, often as not they're based on different initial frames of reference.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You have fallen into the pit of the fallacy of a false generalization, wherein the single exception to the rule justifies all the inferiority of the program.

A few college classes in logic or philosophy would help you out immensely.

[And then don't forget who invented both -- the ancient Greeks!]

Not at all ... I've just seen a lot of good divers and bad divers come out of every agency's programs. You can fault the agency all you like, but the fact remains that what makes the difference aren't the standards of a given agency ... it's the ability of the instructor to teach, and the desire of the student to learn.

There's nothing fallacious about the logic at all ... it boils down to keeping your focus on what matters ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[raymond phule]

Are 4 dives and the class room time in padi OW enough?

A new diver might

be 10 or 65 years old

not even started high school or be a proffessor with a PhD

be a very skilled swimmer or cant swim 50 m

have been playing in water his whole life or be afraid of water and dont want to have their head underwater.

not panic easily or panic extremely easily

The training might be performed in

Very varm water with 30 m visibility in a shorty or in very cold water with 2-3 m visibility in a drysuit.

and people try to determine what is a good number of dives and theory lessons for everyone in all conditions....

 

[sweatfrog]

What class number and who was your lead instructor?.

My class number was 46 and my proctor was Olivera.

Here's a question for recently certified people. Who was your first scuba Instructor? Mine was Vernon Dorsey back in 1962.

That's nice. I can still outswim most people twice my age.

Since I hold both of you in high regard, for different reasons, I would like to mention that Sweatfrog's credentials are 100% genuine. Not only did he go through BUD/S in 1968, he is a Vietnam veteran and served our country with honor as a member of the UDTs. His modesty is a credit to him and IMHO he doesn't have to share this information here.

Thanks

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My class number was 46 and my proctor was Olivera.

Here's a question for recently certified people. Who was your first scuba Instructor? Mine was Vernon Dorsey back in 1962.



Thanks

... and this is supposed to tell us ... what? ... about your diving expertise?

I'd be a lot more impressed if you could respond with factual information. Unfortunately, a lot of the responses I've seen from you contain nothing but strong opinions and information I know to be incorrect ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Don Wray]

Yes, apparently NAUI's standards were "too rigorous" and so PADI was established to be "more conducive to recreational needs" according the eulogy given when PADI's founder John Cronin deceased, not long ago.

And now, it is very conducive:

Certification in only one weekend with only 4 open water dives.

No rescue training in the basic open water course at all.

Gear dangling and dragging from B/Cs.

Fin pivots stirring up the ocean floor, and other such nonsense.

A new dive student pretty much needs to combine both the PADI basic and advanced open water courses to get a realistically safe introductory training course from PADI. The instructors are taught to strongly encourage the follow-up course, for obvious reasons. Given this approach, then the students receive 9 supervised dives, and an excellent training experience. Short of this, and it can be quite hazardous.

Oh really? I did a quick search and found this course advertised:

Take the entry-level step into diving. NAUI Scuba Diver is the minimum required certification necessary to purchase or rent dive equipment or fill dive tanks. Structured to meet the needs of the busy person, students read the weekly course material and view the NAUI Open Water video, go over knowledge reviews and take a quiz. We have 2 Schedules to meet a wide spectrum of needs.

​

Our one week schedule is Mon-Thurs 6:15 to 10pm (Class at NWSD, Pool in Mill Creek)
Sat/Sun 8am-2pm (Alki 5 dives total)
Summer start dates with openings are July 9, 16, 30 – Aug 6, 20


Our weekend schedule is Fri 6:15 to 10pm (Class) Sat/Sun 10am-Noon (Pool) Sat/Sun 8am-2pm (Alki 5 dives total)
June 29 – July 27

If you would like, I'll pm you the site. I've seen divers from all agencies dangling, bicycling etc, I know from your stand point they must be PADI, but having worked with other agency classes, I've seen plenty rushed through, no attention paid to the students buoyancy, so I'm sure it not an agency thing.


And in response to the last paragraph of your post, that encouragement does not appear to be agency specific.

Advanced Scuba Diver ​

With the skills acquired in a Open water Course, students are encouraged to enroll shortly thereafter in this course, which will introduce them to a variety of underwater activities including deep diving, night diving, search and recovery, light salvage, rescue, and underwater navigation. This course may also include a wreck dive, or an underwater photography exercise. Makes you a more practical and well rounded diver! Prerequisite: Open water certification from any nationally recognized agency. Required materials: Advanced educational "kit" (academic materials), underwater slate, two dive lights (one larger PRIMARY light and one smaller BACK-UP light, underwater compass (either wrist-mounted or console-integrated) and a dive light. ​

OPEN WATER DIVES
A minimum of six open water dives is required. A maximum of three dives per day shall be applied toward course requirements. At least two dives are to be deeper than 20 feet (6 m).
The required dive topic areas listed represents three separate dives of the minimum six required. The remaining dives can be combined or split as needed to fit the situation and meet student needs provided at least six separate dives are made:

PADI does not allow combining of skills to meet requirements for specialties or adventure dives.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Don ... I'm not sure what your point is here, but your choice of example is rather ironic.

I know the instructor who teaches the courses you quoted. Here's what I can tell you about his OW class ...

- students are taught to perform all skills while holding a hover ... no OW skills are performed while kneeling
- dive planning and gas management are a key part of the curriculum
- no danglies are allowed ... divers are shown how to properly configure and stow their equipment
- fin kicks, including modified flutter and frog kicks are demonstrated and practiced
- students are properly weighted, and are shown how to do a proper weight check

These are not in any way agency-specific (or even agency-specified) skills ... they're done because that's what it takes to dive here.

As to the AOW class you mentioned ... the instructor who teaches that class teaches one very similar to mine. I happen to know, because he co-developed the curriculum with me. The class emphasizes the specifics of gas management, dive planning, buoyancy control, propulsion, trim, and navigation ... and applies those skills under a variety of different conditions. It's a challenging class, and one that many DM's I know would not be able to pass easily.

You simply cannot draw any conclusions by reading a synopsis from a web site ... the instructor makes all the difference in the world. In this case, you just happened to choose a description of classes offered by one of the better instructors in our area.

Oh ... FWIW ... that instructor also posts on ScubaBoard.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)