Agencies

[Thalassamania]

I'll try and find a bigger hammer.

 

[Blackwood]

I am assuming that the person you know was a USMC Scout Sniper ( as opposed to a U.S Army reconnaisance platoon scout sniper).

That is correct.

I'm sure that regardless of who generally wins Top Sniper, he'd argue that The Corps is the place to be.

Just out of interest, did you friend go on to be a sniper with the SEALs also?

I'm not sure what he did with the SEALs. He was a spotter with the USMC.

 

[leapfrog]

I do ... but I'll ask you to go back and review this thread from the beginning ... read my first few posts here. Then read his first few posts. Tell me how what started out as a constructive conversation turned into a pissing match ... and note who came in pissing.

I'll happily respect anyone who wants to join the conversation ... but there's two things I expect ... 1) some respect in return, and 2) check your facts before you come in here and start telling everyone what they "have to know".

Sweatfrog is routinely disrespectful to anyone he disagrees with ... and he doesn't know squat about NAUI. I base the first comment on his posting history, and the second comment strictly on what he's posted here and elsewhere about the agency.

Whatever his credentials, if he wants respect, he needs to show some in return.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, I read you. We agree on the mutual respect and checking the facts. I don't really know if Sweatfrog is as much of a grouch as you suggest. He has some pretty good posts too, don't you think? I was also surprised by his response to a post I made about NAUI.

I myself came into the Board thinking I knew it all. I certainly know very little compared to you, Thalassa, Sweatfrog and a whole boatload of other guys here, so really I think I should just shut the **** up. Maybe I'll learn something..... or we could all just go down to McP's for some beers....

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, I read you. We agree on the mutual respect and checking the facts. I don't really know if Sweatfrog is as much of a grouch as you suggest. He has some pretty good posts too, don't you think? I was also surprised by his response to a post I made about NAUI.

I myself came into the Board thinking I knew it all. I certainly know very little compared to you, Thalassa, Sweatfrog and a whole boatload of other guys here, so really I think I should just shut the **** up. Maybe I'll learn something..... or we could all just go down to McP's for some beers....

Yup ... I know exactly what you mean. Sometimes I go back and read some of my earlier posts just to embarrass myself. You know the saying ...

At 20 dives I thought I knew a lot.
At 200 dives I thought I knew it all.
At 2000 dives I'm starting to realize how much I don't know.

Beer sounds like a good idea ... I'll take a Mack and Jack's ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[sweatfrog]

I'll happily respect anyone who wants to join the conversation ... but there's two things I expect ... 1) some respect in return, and 2) check your facts before you come in here and start telling everyone what they "have to know"..

I'm going to make a WAG that you are refering to post #58 on this thread. That comes from the most current version of the IANTD standards. If you have issues with it, take it up with them.

Sweatfrog is routinely disrespectful to anyone he disagrees with ....

Most of my time here is spent lurking, as witnessed by my 100+ posts. If I posted on every thread that disrespected PADI, then I wouldn't have time for anything else, including eating and sleeping.

I have nothing against NAUI. However, when posters start picking on the agency someone has chosen to use, it's a very frustrating experience and striking back helps vent those feelings.

Whatever his credentials, if he wants respect, he needs to show some in return.

If you remember some of my posts, I said you have a lot of good points.

BTW, the person on this board who has the most fair and balanced opinions is Walter. I don't agree with him all the time, but you can learn a lot, by listening to him.

 

[leapfrog]

Beer sounds like a good idea ... I'll take a Mack and Jack's ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You have excellent tastes! Sounds like you go for the real thing! Never tried it, so I'll have what you're ordering. Have I got to go all the way to Washington State to have a beer with you?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm going to make a WAG that you are refering to post #58 on this thread. That comes from the most current version of the IANTD standards. If you have issues with it, take it up with them.

Actually, no ... I'm referring to post #49 ... in particular this statement ...

People on the Board also need to know that NAUI is a democracy. Each member has one vote and for NAUI to get a concensus on anything is like pulling teeth. The reason I'm bringing this up, is that one poster was talking about the RSTC. Any changes to the NAUI doctrine have to be brought to the membership to approve. I'm sure the RSTC would welcome NAUI with open arms, but any change for an 'A' type scuba instructor creates strife within the ranks. For NAUI to grow, (besides in a few geographical areas) a position for someone who can make decisions on behalf of the membership, at the top level, could be created. LOL

Emphasis is mine ... but if you're going to tell the people on the board something they "need to know" make sure you have your facts straight ... or else make sure you state that this is an opinion piece.

As far as #58 goes, I'll only say that if I state something that isn't correct, I always appreciate and acknowledge the correction ... politely. I'm neither perfect nor omniscient ... I always appreciate learning things I didn't know, or clarifications on things I didn't fully understand.

What I don't appreciate is disrespect. There's no need for it ... ever.

Most of my time here is spent lurking, as witnessed by my 100+ posts. If I posted on every thread that disrespected PADI, then I wouldn't have time for anything else, including eating and sleeping.

Well, I've been posting here for over six years ... and have over 11,000 posts ... and I'd challenge you to find one single post where I've been disrespectful of PADI. I can point you to plenty ... including some right here in this thread ... where I've stated my opinion that agency standards are less important than the instructor, and that agency bashing is a waste of time.

I respectfully suggest that your anger is misdirected.

I have nothing against NAUI. However, when posters start picking on the agency someone has chosen to use, it's a very frustrating experience and striking back helps vent those feelings.

I agree ... but striking back only reaps negative results. Didn't your mother ever teach you that two wrongs don't make a right?

... but three lefts do ...

If you remember some of my posts, I said you have a lot of good points.

Sure ... I should also point out that how you say things is often at least as important as what you say ... and to be fair, it's something I have to remind myself from time to time as well. As leapfrog pointed out, we can disagree ... but doing so respectfully gains a lot more willingness to listen to what each of us has to say.

BTW, the person on this board who has the most fair and balanced opinions is Walter. I don't agree with him all the time, but you can learn a lot, by listening to him.

I agree ... I can ... and I do ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You have excellent tastes! Sounds like you go for the real thing! Never tried it, so I'll have what you're ordering. Have I got to go all the way to Washington State to have a beer with you?

Perhaps, yes ... Mack and Jacks is a local brewery. I highly recommend the African Amber.

You fly, I'll buy ... bring a drysuit. The diving here's quite good ... but the water's rather chilly ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[sweatfrog]

As far as #58 goes, I'll only say that if I state something that isn't correct, I always appreciate and acknowledge the correction ... politely.

I missed that in any of your posts after that.

I'm neither perfect nor omniscient ...

Nor am I.

I always appreciate learning things I didn't know, or clarifications on things I didn't fully understand.

As do I.

I can point you to plenty ... including some right here in this thread ... where I've stated my opinion that agency standards are less important than the instructor, and that agency bashing is a waste of time.

Without standards, this whole conversation, as a matter of fact, this whole industry is a moot point.

I agree ... but striking back only reaps negative results. Didn't your mother ever teach you that two wrongs don't make a right?

... but three lefts do ...

I should also point out that how you say things is often at least as important as what you say ... and to be fair, it's something I have to remind myself from time to time as well. As leapfrog pointed out, we can disagree ... but doing so respectfully gains a lot more willingness to listen to what each of us has to say.

You're right, that knife does cut both ways.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Without standards, this whole conversation, as a matter of fact, this whole industry is a moot point.

OK ... that's a valid point ... but I wasn't suggesting doing away with standards. I said that they're less important than choosing the right instructor.

Standards are important for establishing a baseline criteria for the skills and safety protocols needed to evaluate competence. But when agencies start promoting standards that amount to a race to see who can provide the quickest, easiest, and cheapest class ... then they start to lose their value.

What matters more is what standards DON'T do ... which is dictate the "subjective" meaning of terms like "mastery" and "competence". That's always left up to the instructor ... and some instructors are going to set the bar higher than others.

What standards also don't do is motivate students ... which is a HUGE component of learning anything. The instructor who engages his students' interest ... who gets them involved in the learning process ... who challenges them to reach beyond the minimum requirements ... is going to produce better divers than the one who just manages to meet the baseline objectives ... despite the fact that they're both teaching to the same set of standards.

In any learning environment, motivation matters ... and that's something that standards cannot, and do not, address.

Agency standards only provide the framework upon which the class is established. It's the instructor who determines the quality of the learning experience ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)