Agencies

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OK ... that's a valid point ... but I wasn't suggesting doing away with standards. I said that they're less important than choosing the right instructor.

Standards are important for establishing a baseline criteria for the skills and safety protocols needed to evaluate competence. But when agencies start promoting standards that amount to a race to see who can provide the quickest, easiest, and cheapest class ... then they start to lose their value.
The problem with the entire "standards discussion" is that comparing NAUI and PADI standards is "apples and oranges," and from what I've seen it is intentionally obfusticated by PADI supporters, who either simply do not understand or have some rhetorical stake in having it appear as "six of one, half dozen of the other".

NAUI Standards are MINIMUM standards. They are designed to create a floor, but no ceiling. They are centered solely on student needs (I know ... I wrote 'em). If you want to issue a card you need to meet hours requirements, sessions requirements, staffing requirements, a knowledge and skills objectives list (and with the exception of the ESE you can teach them however, and in whatever order you think best for the student) and that's about it. You can add material to the course that you think is appropriate.

PADI Standards are both minimum and maximum standards which makes PADI programs rather rigid. They apepar to me to focus on uniformity in teaching progression, maximizing the numbers of cards issued and the LDS' needs. With rather minor exceptions, everything must be done in an order and a fashion that is delineated by the standards. Little variation is permitted, and it is intentionally made rather difficult to add material to meet additional significant knowledge or skill objectives.

The bottom line is that NAUI courses may be quite variable. An instructor(s) teaching a course to a group of oceanographers, or a team or firefighters, or six tourists from Bosie, needs to meet the same minimum standard, but will likely be teaching three very different courses. Within the PADI world all three groups would get the same entry level course and then a different mix of "adventure dives" (I find that such a precious term) and then a rescue course. Then the oceanographers and firefighters might get different "distinctive specialties" designed to backfill as needed and to teach the additional things about each specific kind of diving that they need.

So I don't think that the real discussion actually revolves about "standards." It has more to do with the tension between who knows what is best for a give group of students: the instructor or some official at the agency headquarters. An official who, likely as not, has no experience whatever with (using the previous examples) underwater science or firefighting and who, quite frankly, does not see those items as markets that are large enough to really give a damn about.

What matters more is what standards DON'T do ... which is dictate the "subjective" meaning of terms like "mastery" and "competence". That's always left up to the instructor ... and some instructors are going to set the bar higher than others.
That's a pet peeve of mine, first PADI drops the standards while puffing up the language and then tries to argue that the dictionary does not apply.

What standards also don't do is motivate students ... which is a HUGE component of learning anything. The instructor who engages his students' interest ... who gets them involved in the learning process ... who challenges them to reach beyond the minimum requirements ... is going to produce better divers than the one who just manages to meet the baseline objectives ... despite the fact that they're both teaching to the same set of standards.
No question about that, but when the standards bias both the potential as well as the potentiating of those abilities by discouraging, or prohibiting, a reach beyond the minimum requirements of baseline objectives, then even when there is a good item to item fit between the standards of two agencies, one instructor is operating with a hand tied behind his or her back and simply can not compete in delivering to the student what I feel the student deserves, the best possible personalized training.

In any learning environment, motivation matters ... and that's something that standards cannot, and do not, address.

Agency standards only provide the framework upon which the class is established. It's the instructor who determines the quality of the learning experience ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
... within the envelope that the standards define. With a bigger envelope an instructor is better able to meet his or her student's precise needs. So sure ... whilst the best "Agency X" Instructor that there is may well be better than than the worst "Agency Y" Instructor, from the median value on up the model suggests that the reverse is true, with the gap between the two agencies expanding as one moves to the right and the rigidity of standards come more and more into play as a limiting factor.

If what you are teaching is in the middle of the envelope, most of what's important is in the instructor, and the instructor's signal will swamp the small differences in standards. But ... if what your teaching is on the edge, or outside, of the envelope that the standards were designed for ... then there's a huge interactive term between the instructor and standards limitations.
 
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What standards also don't do is motivate students

Not sure I agree, at least not as a blanket statement.

While it is likely that no one will be motivated by low standards, I think a reasonable percentage of the population finds motivation in high standards.

"Holy crap, I'm going to have to [-]work[/-] dive my ass off in order to get up to snuff." Maybe not everyone is attracted to/motivated by that, but I certainly am, as are those with whom I regularly dive. But I'm a dive :dork2:.
 
Thalassa, Sweatfrog, Bob, Blackwood... I gotta tell ya. I'm loving this. Agencies, standards, motivation, a Mack and Jacks. Well just wanted to say that I think that the higher the standard, the higher the motivation. Imagine there was a recreational diving certification that was the GOLD standard. Thalassa calls himself an Aquanaut (which he is). Imagine there was an official Aquanaut training program. A lot of what we are discussing here is how things have become devalued. I remember what an INSTRUCTOR was. Wow! They walked on water. Now? Some guy who clocked up a hundred dives and went zero to hero? The things that are worth most in life are the the things you have to almost kill yourself to get. When we get an Instructor program with a 75% drop out rate (I said DROP, not fail) those will be the Instructors valued by the Industry.

OK, Bob. I'll have another beer and let's toast the rest of the guys here on SB. From the East to the West, you're the Best!
 
Thalassa, Sweatfrog, Bob, Blackwood... I gotta tell ya. I'm loving this. Agencies, standards, motivation, a Mack and Jacks. Well just wanted to say that I think that the higher the standard, the higher the motivation. Imagine there was a recreational diving certification that was the GOLD standard. Thalassa calls himself an Aquanaut (which he is). Imagine there was an official Aquanaut training program. A lot of what we are discussing here is how things have become devalued. I remember what an INSTRUCTOR was. Wow! They walked on water. Now? Some guy who clocked up a hundred dives and went zero to hero? The things that are worth most in life are the the things you have to almost kill yourself to get. When we get an Instructor program with a 75% drop out rate (I said DROP, not fail) those will be the Instructors valued by the Industry.

OK, Bob. I'll have another beer and let's toast the rest of the guys here on SB. From the East to the West, you're the Best!
An Aquanaut is anyone who has saturated in a habitat.

There is an official NOAA Aquanaut training program for the Aquarius Habitat (you just get a NOAA patch) and there is a NAUI and a PADI Specialty course with the same title (hardly the same course, you get a card and certificate, but no patch) that you can take at the Jules Undersea Hotel if you're going to have a 24 hour or longer stay.

There is a "gold standard" in recreational certs: L.A. County Advanced and NAUI Master Diver. I'd still tip my mask to any L.A. County Instructor.
 
WOW Lazy turtle... never seen PDIC card in Hawaii well I have a friend who owns Hawaii Scuba Divers and the course he teaches is Pdic and I am a padi Instructor and I see his students on Boats all the Time..
 
WOW Lazy turtle... never seen PDIC card in Hawaii well I have a friend who owns Hawaii Scuba Divers and the course he teaches is Pdic and I am a padi Instructor and I see his students on Boats all the Time..

I've been a full time instructor/guide for over 5 years on Oahu and Maui, with a few part time years before that, and I also have never seen a pdic card. :D
 
But what I'm saying is that it's better to be inclusive than exclusive. If you want to raise the bar, it's better to be a part of the community than it is to sit on the sidelines and criticise their shortcomings.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

What if good instructors infiltrated PADI so they could keep the bar high for some of the masses that are suckered into the marketing machine. If most of the dive customers are going to PADI, then that's where I can make the most difference. Besides, way more women go with PADI. :D
 
Wouldn't matter. Good instructors will teach the same number regardless of what agency they use. A good instructor will have more of a positive influence in an agency that actually encourages them to be good.
 
While it is likely that no one will be motivated by low standards, I think a reasonable percentage of the population finds motivation in high standards.
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I am not sure where in Society you are looking at, but sadly I tend to disagree.:shakehead:
 
The bottom line is that NAUI courses may be quite variable.

I am not sure how this applies to diving (though I could imagine, but it wouldn't be fair). In other facets of life I have seen this philosophy, and it generally turns out that you can't trust the course, as you have no idea what you are going to get over the "minimum".

So I guess what I am trying to say is, in a "standards discussion", you can't place NAUI above the absolute minimums, as any instructor can teach down to that level and still pass their students.

That goes for all agencies and in all subjects. I suppose it boils back down to "It's the instructor, not the agency".
 
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