Agencies

[MXGratefulDiver]

I am not sure how this applies to diving (though I could imagine, but it wouldn't be fair). In other facets of life I have seen this philosophy, and it generally turns out that you can't trust the course, as you have no idea what you are going to get over the "minimum".

So I guess what I am trying to say is, in a "standards discussion", you can't place NAUI above the absolute minimums, as any instructor can teach down to that level and still pass their students.

That goes for all agencies and in all subjects. I suppose it boils back down to "It's the instructor, not the agency".

My sentiments exactly.

IMO ... and although I thoroughly appreciate my association with NAUI ... I think their standard AOW curriculum is pretty lame. It's basically nothing more than a review of what was (or should have been) taught in OW.

Therefore I wrote my own curriculum.

I appreciate that with NAUI I can best serve my students by doing that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[leapfrog]

An Aquanaut is anyone who has saturated in a habitat. .

Interesting link. It's fascinating to see what gets on to Wikipedia and who the contributors are!

 

[Thalassamania]

I am not sure how this applies to diving (though I could imagine, but it wouldn't be fair). In other facets of life I have seen this philosophy, and it generally turns out that you can't trust the course, as you have no idea what you are going to get over the "minimum".

If by "trust" you mean that you can not know, without talking to the instructor, the depth and breath of material covered, that is correct. I can't imagine taking a course, any course, without first looking at the objectives and syllabus and talking to the instructor. I recognize that there are people who do not want to do that and prefer to know that no matter what restaurant they go into they're gonna get two all beef patties, special sauce, etc. If that's the way you see the world, fine, a program sandwiched twixt minimum and maximum sesame buns is clearly your best choice.

So I guess what I am trying to say is, in a "standards discussion", you can't place NAUI above the absolute minimums, as any instructor can teach down to that level and still pass their students.

The point is that the standards that any NAUI Instructor might "teach down to" as you put it, still meet or exceed the standards that other agency instructors are limited to teach up to. If your need is split up sessions between disparate instructors and facilities then rigid agency structure will make that happen for you. If, on the other hand, your need is for a training program that is customized for your needs and the special aspects of the location, then a bit less centralized planning might serve better.

That goes for all agencies and in all subjects. I suppose it boils back down to "It's the instructor, not the agency".

You appear to be missing the point that there is a major difference in agency philosophy, but I guess that's by intent. This "Little Orphan Annie" act is precisely the BS that I warned about in my earlier post when I said;

The problem with the entire "standards discussion" is that comparing NAUI and PADI standards is "apples and oranges," and from what I've seen it is intentionally obfusticated by PADI supporters, who either simply do not understand or have some rhetorical stake in having it appear as "six of one, half dozen of the other".

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

What if good instructors infiltrated PADI so they could keep the bar high for some of the masses that are suckered into the marketing machine. If most of the dive customers are going to PADI, then that's where I can make the most difference. Besides, way more women go with PADI.

Wouldn't matter. Good instructors will teach the same number regardless of what agency they use. A good instructor will have more of a positive influence in an agency that actually encourages them to be good.

OK; let's take a hypothetical situation where an IANTD/PADI instructor on Maui decides to not Put Another Dollar In. The only IANTD dive shop rarely hires anyone, because hardly anyone ever leaves. The County of Maui regulates commercial dive instruction from the Beach Parks, in such a way that no permits have been issued for ~5 years and going forward the plan is to eliminate many existing permits, and not open the process up for new ones.

Nearly all the other operators on Maui are PADI, the largest operator forces you to become SSI and there is no NAUI operator (just a few operators with XXXX/NAUI instructors). Now suppose this hopeful IANTD instructor approaches life as art, scuba instruction as art, the underwater realm as his canvas. How many artists are as good at marketing as PADI?

If I could sell, I would be making a living off my photography; then I could teach a few divers per year just for the love of teaching diving. If I want to teach diving for a living, thereby teaching the most divers per year, I must Put Another Dollar In! These are the facts of dive life in many, many locations.

Walter, your occasionally similar statements are so closed minded and ignorant as to make me wonder if you occasionally miss your medication! Either that or you need to get out a little more.

 

[Hawaii Scuba Divers]

Thanks Carlos..
Yes there are other agency's out there besides padi and Naui and I do Teach for PDIC which is Founding Member of RSTC and WRSTC has been around since 1960's and is World Wide Agency..
PDIC divers look for QUALITY SCUBA EXPERIENCES maybe thats why you have not been Lucky enough to have any of them to DIVE WITH..
Aloha Mark.

 

[Blackwood]

PDIC divers look for QUALITY SCUBA EXPERIENCES maybe thats why you have not been Lucky enough to have any of them to DIVE WITH..

huh?

 

[Thalassamania]

OK; let's take a hypothetical situation where an IANTD/PADI instructor on Maui decides to not Put Another Dollar In. The only IANTD dive shop rarely hires anyone, because hardly anyone ever leaves. The County of Maui regulates commercial dive instruction from the Beach Parks, in such a way that no permits have been issued for ~5 years and going forward the plan is to eliminate many existing permits, and not open the process up for new ones.

The island diving instruction politics and the fact that we choose to live on politically corrupt islands (see ... didn't take me long to figure that one out) have no bearing on the issue. If an instructor does not have a shop outlet and hasn't figured out how to "fit in" to the local scene that is not an agency issue, its an entrepreneurial one.

Nearly all the other operators on Maui are PADI, the largest operator forces you to become SSI and there is no NAUI operator (just a few operators with XXXX/NAUI instructors). Now suppose this hopeful IANTD instructor approaches life as art, scuba instruction as art, the underwater realm as his canvas. How many artists are as good at marketing as PADI?

How many restaurants are as good at marketing as McDonalds? I still don't eat the poo-doo. It's hard to get a job at the one five star restaurant around, its easy to get a job at your local five star dive center. Wonder why that is?

If I could sell, I would be making a living off my photography; then I could teach a few divers per year just for the love of teaching diving. If I want to teach diving for a living, thereby teaching the most divers per year, I must Put Another Dollar In! These are the facts of dive life in many, many locations.

For some that is true, and if they choose to participate, so be it ... in the end it's their karma and they will burn out a year or two of repeating the same thing, over and over, day after day. It's sort of like in Gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado, the song about, "the Punishment Fit the Crime."

I choose to not do that.

My sentiments exactly.

IMO ... and although I thoroughly appreciate my association with NAUI ... I think their standard AOW curriculum is pretty lame. It's basically nothing more than a review of what was (or should have been) taught in OW.

Therefore I wrote my own curriculum.

I appreciate that with NAUI I can best serve my students by doing that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I know that you like to present a public (at least) facade of warm and fuzzy: all the agencies are the same. But face it ... could you teach the courses that you do within the PADI framework?

Sure ... a lot of it boils down to the Instructor, and the best and most experienced of PADI's Instructors may (likely are) running better courses that NAUI's weakest nubie ... but at the high quality end you can't fairly compare the product because PADI does not permit the kind of instruction that you do or that I do.

We have to take personal responsibility (and should also take credit) for what we do, so in that sense it's the Instructor, but it's also the agency since people like you and I do not exist within PADI ... we're not permitted to.

I agree with you about the NAUI Advanced Course. That's just another example of where NAUI has gone weak in the knees and dumbed the program down to "better compete" without gaining one iota of market share.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I know that you like to present a public (at least) facade of warm and fuzzy: all the agencies are the same. But face it ... could you teach the courses that you do within the PADI framework?

Warm and fuzzy ... ... I get called a grumpy old man more often than not.

I don't think I've ever said that all the agencies are the same. I think I've said they all cover the same basic curriculum ... but the differences are in how they teach it and what they emphasize. With that in mind, no ... I could not teach the courses I do within the PADI framework. I COULD cover the same topics ... but not in the manner that I presently cover them. I think PADI would frown on me handing a student the agency materials and saying "Here, you're required to read this" and then handing them my material and saying "but this is the material we'll be covering in this class."

Sure ... a lot of it boils down to the Instructor, and the best and most experienced of PADI's Instructors may (likely are) running better courses that NAUI's weakest nubie ... but at the high quality end you can't fairly compare the product because PADI does not permit the kind of instruction that you do or that I do.

I'm not so sure I can agree. I can think of a few PADI instructors in my area who put on kick-ass classes, and turn out very well-trained divers. When I was a DM I worked with one who had all his DM's doing skills demos while hovering ... and by the third pool session had the students doing the same thing. That same instructor was the inspiration for several of the "tricks" I currently use in my AOW class. But he's been teaching for almost 30 years, and I swear to God the man's got more energy than most teens. In his case, I don't think it would matter what agency he taught for, he'd find ways to turn out excellent divers.

That's what I mean by "it's the instructor" ... an instructor who's motivated will find ways to make the agency standards work. That term "mastery" allows a fair bit of wiggle room.

We have to take personal responsibility (and should also take credit) for what we do, so in that sense it's the Instructor, but it's also the agency since people like you and I do not exist within PADI ... we're not permitted to.

I can't speak about that with authority ... but knowing who you are, I know that you can. So I'll take your word for it. My experience is that there are awesome and very weak instructors in all of the agencies I've been exposed to.

I agree with you about the NAUI Advanced Course. That's just another example of where NAUI has gone weak in the knees and dumbed the program down to "better compete" without gaining one iota of market share.

But, thankfully, they give me the latitude to raise the bar for my students and give them a class that both of us can be proud of. There's obviously a market for it ... a significant number of my students come here from other states to take the class. Obviously there's a percentage of divers out there who want more than "quick, cheap, and easy" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

I don't think I've ever said that all the agencies are the same. I think I've said they all cover the same basic curriculum ... but the differences are in how they teach it and what they emphasize. With that in mind, no ... I could not teach the courses I do within the PADI framework. I COULD cover the same topics ... but not in the manner that I presently cover them. I think PADI would frown on me handing a student the agency materials and saying "Here, you're required to read this" and then handing them my material and saying "but this is the material we'll be covering in this class."

I couldn't even cover the same topics.

I'm not so sure I can agree. I can think of a few PADI instructors in my area who put on kick-ass classes, and turn out very well-trained divers. When I was a DM I worked with one who had all his DM's doing skills demos while hovering ... and by the third pool session had the students doing the same thing. That same instructor was the inspiration for several of the "tricks" I currently use in my AOW class. But he's been teaching for almost 30 years, and I swear to God the man's got more energy than most teens. In his case, I don't think it would matter what agency he taught for, he'd find ways to turn out excellent divers.

I've never seen what I could describe as a "kick-ass" class (regardless of agency) that ran in 20 hr (or so) format. I have seen some 40 hour courses that I could describe that way, but that's about the lower limit.

That's what I mean by "it's the instructor" ... an instructor who's motivated will find ways to make the agency standards work. That term "mastery" allows a fair bit of wiggle room.

For me to decide that an agency's standards work I have to see a diver that is capable of actually performing adequately in the local environment (and this includes basic rescue skills).

I can't speak about that with authority ... but knowing who you are, I know that you can. So I'll take your word for it. My experience is that there are awesome and very weak instructors in all of the agencies I've been exposed to.

There are awesome instructors and weak instructors in all agencies, I just happen to know that if I were forced into the 20 hour mold, I'd feel like a weak instructor.

But, thankfully, they give me the latitude to raise the bar for my students and give them a class that both of us can be proud of. There's obviously a market for it ... a significant number of my students come here from other states to take the class. Obviously there's a percentage of divers out there who want more than "quick, cheap, and easy" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Gracias a Dios.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I couldn't even cover the same topics.
I've never seen what I could describe as a "kick-ass" class (regardless of agency) that ran in 20 hr (or so) format. I have seen some 40 hour courses that I could describe that way, but that's about the lower limit.
For me to decide that an agency's standards work I have to see a diver that is capable of actually performing adequately in the local environment (and this includes basic rescue skills).
There are awesome instructors and weak instructors in all agencies, I just happen to know that if I were forced into the 20 hour mold, I feel like a weak instructor.
Gracias a Dios.

We operate within different frames of reference ... we've always known that. I like to think I set a higher than average bar for my students, and that when they complete the class they have achieved a reasonable competence for their level of training and experience.

You train divers to a different standard, and for different reasons ... and therefore your standards are much higher. Hell, I'm not sure I would even be able to pass one of your classes, and I like to think I've got pretty good skills.

I doubt that any recreational agency could meet your standards ... but you're not training recreational divers.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)