Agencies

[dbulmer]

Respectfully, that pretty well sums up what I think is wrong with GUE.

I love what they teach ... I surely wish they'd find a way to teach it in a manner that would reach more people, and do it in a way that wasn't quite so off-putting to the rest of the dive community.

We recently had our first Dive Expo here in the PNW. It was a pretty amazing event, in that it brought almost the whole local dive community together under one roof for the first time since I've been diving. I say almost because there was only one shop in the entire greater Seattle area that chose not to participate ... and one group of divers that was conspicuous by their absence.

That's a shame ... they have a lot to offer that a lot more people could benefit from. But if they don't want to be a part of the community, then they've got no right to shake their heads at what other people do.

Something I learned from a GUE instructor who, sadly, no longer teaches (because I thought he was the best instructor I've ever had) is that the key to excellent instruction is putting your message out to people in a way that makes them want to hear what you have to say.

With respect to agencies, image matters as much as substance ... because that's what gets people to make their choices in the first place. And whatever complaints you have with PADI and the other mainstream agencies, the one thing they do well is be inclusive and make it clear to their members that diving is a social activity ... the whole point of which is to have fun.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

NWG,
As I'm not familiar with your locale, could this have more to do with those divers as individuals rather than GUE as an agency? Over here there are usually a few days in the year where some folks will go diving and demonstrate some kit and/or skills to those who might be interested in GUE/DIR. I suspect this might be the case in other countries in Europe as well.

I know that you personally have done your fair share of mentoring over the years and I suspect that your method is the norm rather than the exception outside your locale.

 

[leapfrog]

To be brutally honest about it though, advances in gear make diving a lot safer now than it was in (say) the 1970s.

For people who just dive on holiday in warm, clear, tropical waters, the dumbing down of training over the years will probably never harm them, but it opens up the increasingly safe world of diving for the concentration-challenged section of the community (a minority that numbers somewhere around 90% these days).

I think what the OP was saying is what are the differences between the agencies. I also understand, I don't know if correctly, by reading many posts on many threads that there are both CORE divers (may be the other 10%) and some concentration-challenged divers who want MORE. More skills, more options, more quality. If PADI, SSI and CMAS have done for diving what McDonalds, Burger King and Wendy's have done for the hamburger, some people clearly want a Mellon's or a PJ Clarke's....or they would like McDonalds BK and Wendy's to put more choice on the Menu and stop using transfats?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

NWG,
As I'm not familiar with your locale, could this have more to do with those divers as individuals rather than GUE as an agency? Over here there are usually a few days in the year where some folks will go diving and demonstrate some kit and/or skills to those who might be interested in GUE/DIR. I suspect this might be the case in other countries in Europe as well.

I know that you personally have done your fair share of mentoring over the years and I suspect that your method is the norm rather than the exception outside your locale.

I'm treading a line here, and really don't want to seem like I'm bashing the agency, or the people who choose to dive that way ... I happen to think it's a great thing, especially in the waters I normally dive in.

What I was commenting on was a reinforcement of stereotypes via internet commentary ... it influences people's perceptions a great deal, and to a large degree makes it more difficult to steer them in a direction that might benefit them in the long run.

Yes, I do a deal of mentoring ... outside of my normal instructing responsibilities. And I do introduce people to DIR ... both in terms of gear selection and in my mental approach to diving. But I don't restrict it to people who I think might be interested in diving as I do ... nor do I attempt to sell anyone on a particular style of diving. I simply show them what I do and let them draw their own conclusions. Not surprisingly, a lot of the people I teach or mentor end up choosing to take GUE classes eventually.

But what I'm saying is that it's better to be inclusive than exclusive. If you want to raise the bar, it's better to be a part of the community than it is to sit on the sidelines and criticise their shortcomings. Mentoring someone because you think they might be interested in DIR/GUE isn't really mentoring at all ... it's recruiting. It isn't helping improve the community at all ... it's inviting select members to come join your club.

This is where I think GUE and its representives at all levels could "Do it Better".

A person can learn to become an exemplary diver no matter what agency they choose. What it takes is choosing an instructor who knows what they're doing, adopting an attitude that's open to critical evaluation, questioning everything (I'm especially fond of questions that start with "why"), and a willingness to recognize your weaknesses and actively put effort into strengthening them.

And it's OK to be discerning and judgmental ... especially when choosing who you want to dive with ... but there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. The latter does more harm than good ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[brutus_scuba]

First of all it's important to realize that there is a council, the RSTC (Recreational Scuba Training Council) that oversees the standards for all the Recreational Dive Agencies, or most I should say recently NAUI was removed as a member of the RSTC. As I understand it the decision was mostly due to their change in terminology surrounding the dive tables (i.e. RNT, Actual Bottom Time, etc. etc.)

You can see the minimum standards for agencies belonging to the RSTC here WRSTC Downloads

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

First of all it's important to realize that there is a council, the RSTC (Recreational Scuba Training Council) that oversees the standards for all the Recreational Dive Agencies, or most I should say recently NAUI was removed as a member of the RSTC. As I understand it the decision was mostly due to their change in terminology surrounding the dive tables (i.e. RNT, Actual Bottom Time, etc. etc.)

You can see the minimum standards for agencies belonging to the RSTC here WRSTC Downloads

That is not an accurate statement.

First off NAUI was one of the founding members of the RSTC ... they dropped out voluntarily and were not removed. Their decision not to participate in RSTC had nothing to do with tables or terminology ... it had to do with the lack of standards acceptable to NAUI, and an unwillingness to abide by standards that they believed to be inadequate and not in agreement with NAUI's training philosophy.

The RSTC does not "oversee the standards of all Recreational Dive Agencies". That was never its intended purpose. It is an organization whose members create what they consider a minimum set of standards that all member agencies must meet. They are not at all a regulatory agency ... they're an attempt to set standards among member agencies ... more like a club enacting bylaws for its members. The major issue I have with RSTC standards is that they're so low as to be essentially meaningless ... they're nothing more than a "lowest common denominator" amalgam of the standards produced by their member agencies. That's one reason why NAUI decided not to join ... they decided that there were more disadvantages than advantages to this approach. It was a basic business decision as to what was in their best interest.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[leapfrog]

First of all it's important to realize that there is a council, the RSTC (Recreational Scuba Training Council) that oversees the standards for all the Recreational Dive Agencies, or most I should say recently NAUI was removed as a member of the RSTC. As I understand it the decision was mostly due to their change in terminology surrounding the dive tables (i.e. RNT, Actual Bottom Time, etc. etc.)

You can see the minimum standards for agencies belonging to the RSTC here WRSTC Downloads

VERY INTERESTING AND ENLIGHTENING. Thanks for the post and the downloads. Can anyone give more insight as to why NAUI is not a member of WRSTC? Surely there must be more to it than terminology? What about NASE?

 

[tc]

See Bob's post above.

NAUI was never a member and has never seen a benefit to be gained by joining.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

See Bob's post above.

NAUI was never a member and has never seen a benefit to be gained by joining.

I edited to correct my post ... I had forgotten that NAUI was one of the founding members of the RSTC, and left the organization several years ago. They were not "removed" ... they left because there was no benefit to them belonging to the organization ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[dbulmer]

I'm treading a line here, and really don't want to seem like I'm bashing the agency, or the people who choose to dive that way ... I happen to think it's a great thing, especially in the waters I normally dive in.

What I was commenting on was a reinforcement of stereotypes via internet commentary ... it influences people's perceptions a great deal, and to a large degree makes it more difficult to steer them in a direction that might benefit them in the long run.

Yes, I do a deal of mentoring ... outside of my normal instructing responsibilities. And I do introduce people to DIR ... both in terms of gear selection and in my mental approach to diving. But I don't restrict it to people who I think might be interested in diving as I do ... nor do I attempt to sell anyone on a particular style of diving. I simply show them what I do and let them draw their own conclusions. Not surprisingly, a lot of the people I teach or mentor end up choosing to take GUE classes eventually.

But what I'm saying is that it's better to be inclusive than exclusive. If you want to raise the bar, it's better to be a part of the community than it is to sit on the sidelines and criticise their shortcomings. Mentoring someone because you think they might be interested in DIR/GUE isn't really mentoring at all ... it's recruiting. It isn't helping improve the community at all ... it's inviting select members to come join your club.

This is where I think GUE and its representives at all levels could "Do it Better".

A person can learn to become an exemplary diver no matter what agency they choose. What it takes is choosing an instructor who knows what they're doing, adopting an attitude that's open to critical evaluation, questioning everything (I'm especially fond of questions that start with "why"), and a willingness to recognize your weaknesses and actively put effort into strengthening them.

And it's OK to be discerning and judgmental ... especially when choosing who you want to dive with ... but there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. The latter does more harm than good ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Agree with you 100%. My first encounter with DIR was on Scubaboard - my first encounter with DIR divers was in my local dive club. Very different experiences!

 

[leapfrog]

First off NAUI was never a member of the RSTC ... therefore they were never removed. Their decision not to participate in RSTC had nothing to do with tables or terminology.

That sounds more reasonable.

The RSTC does not "oversee the standards of all Recreational Dive Agencies". That was never its intended purpose. It is an organization whose members create what they consider a minimum set of standards that all member agencies must meet. They are not at all a regulatory agency ... they're an attempt to set standards among member agencies ... more like a club enacting bylaws for its members. The major issue I have with RSTC standards is that they're so low as to be essentially meaningless.

Yeah, I read the Dive Supervisor provisions. A minimum of 20 dives! I can just see the scene at the Dive Center. "Hi guys, this is Chuck. He's been here two weeks and has TWENTY DIVES under his belt, so now he's going to guide you on some cool dives! We call them cool because your blood runs cold!"

That's one reason why NAUI decided not to join.

I can imagine that the diver training organization of choice of NASA’s Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory with NAUI instructors on staff to assure the safety and excellence of the NASA astronaut diver program would not agree to those kinds of standards. SEALs, Coast Guard rescue divers and other special military forces are trained to NAUI standards; the US National Parks Service and NOAA divers receive NAUI training and certifications. So, yup Bob, I can see why NAUI isn't a member of WRSTC.