Question Advanced gas planning for complex cave dive (upstream/downstream)

[steinbil]

Yeah, that's the problem. You think you understand.

It's normal these days I guess. People that never used a ccr know better than ccr divers, never taught a class but know better than the instructor, never dove a cave but still know better than cave divers. Everbody is an expert, because they read stuff on the web. Believe what you want.

I don’t know what to tell you, man. It seems like you’re either arguing against your prejudice of me or just constructing straw men.

I don’t know how many times I’ve used the phrase «I don’t know» or words like «wondering» or «maybe». How you turn that in to me pretending to be an expert is mind boggling to me. I’m not offering any advice, I’m asking questions. And I value all the answers, because it gives me an indication of what this sub-community thinks regarding this, and there does not seem to be any consensus. Yes, I also value your answers, even if you try to twist my words. It makes me consider it more carefully, and I don’t think I should be one to make that call, because (gasp) I’m no expert on cave diving, dive training, social sciences, societal risk analysis or anything of the kind. I still think that ot’s not wrong for me to challenge people with more expertise than me by asking questions, though…

 

[L13]

Yeah, that's the problem. You think you understand.

It's normal these days I guess. People that never used a ccr know better than ccr divers, never taught a class but know better than the instructor, never dove a cave but still know better than cave divers. Everbody is an expert, because they read stuff on the web. Believe what you want.

It is a fact that some people who have never used a ccr know some things about ccrs that some ccr divers don't know(ex. chemical scientist knowing the theory of the scrubber better). Some people that have never taught a scuba class know some things abut teaching that some scuba instructors don't know. Some people who have never dove a cave still know some things about diving caves than some cave divers(possibly because they learned it from another cave diver).

If the only way of transferring potentially dangerous information is instructor to student in person, we are playing a dangerous game of telephone and eventually there will be nothing but dangerous misinformation and ignorant people thinking they are knowledgeable experts.

 

[berndo]

@steinbil according to your profile you have 50 some dives. Has it ever crossed your mind that may not know what you're talking about?
I'm not trying to attack you. I'm just under the impression that you read some stuff online and watched a couple of videos and now are way overestimating you're undstanding. I'm also not under the impression that you're in good faith trying to understand what I've tried to explain severarl times now.
Contact a cave instructor and ask what he or she thinks about this, maybe you believe that person.

 

[berndo]

It is a fact that some people who have never used a ccr know some things about ccrs that some ccr divers don't know(ex. chemical scientist knowing the theory of the scrubber better). Some people that have never taught a scuba class know some things abut teaching that some scuba instructors don't know. Some people who have never dove a cave still know some things about diving caves than some cave divers(possibly because they learned it from another cave diver).

Lol, yes, I get it. That person who knows more is you. I already saw that in the thread were you tried to lecture the instructors for the last 20 pages.

 

[lostsheep]

That person who knows more is you.

Clearly you know more than the rest of us about:

1) what we know or don’t know

2) what we should say or not say

3) where we got our knowledge


I’m beginning to think you’re a bot based off of tone, frequency, and content of your posts.


ETA: how many posts do you need to make the VERY simple point that you don’t believe information about gas planning for cave diving should be shared with non cave divers in the interest of safety. I’m pretty sure literally everyone here understands your point.

We just don’t agree with you; welcome to the internet.

 

[L13]

Lol, yes, I get it. That person who knows more is you. I already saw that in the thread were you tried to lecture the instructors for the last 20 pages.

Not remotely what I said, either here or there (where other instructors agreed with me). The advantage of instructors is not that they know more than me about everything, but that they know more than me about something, and I want to know that thing.

I guarantee that you know more about many things than me. I guarantee I know more about some things than you. I guarantee that some of the things you think you know more about than me you don't. I guarantee that some of the things I think I know more about than you I don't.

None of that changes the fact that secret knowledge and gate keeping is a horrible idea in general.

... I already saw that in the thread were you tried to lecture the instructors for the last 20 pages.

Mostly not lecturing. I was mostly just quoting the standards.

• Instructor says "standards say X" without quoting the standard at all.
• I quote the standard actually not saying X but rather Y. (several other instructors then like my post)
• Instructor says "how dare you question me, I'm and instructor and you are nobody."
• Somebody from mars accuses me of being a know-it-all that lectures instructors.
• The truth is, I just know how to read and applied that skill to the standards.

 

[berndo]

Clearly you know more than the rest of us about:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I know more about cave diving related topics than people without any cave training. I know, how rude of me to say that. Have fun boys.

 

[L13]

I’m beginning to think you’re a bot based off of tone, frequency, and content of your posts.

Too emotional to be a bot.
And he actually contributes productively a fair bit of the time.

But mostly your post was spot on about this conversation!

 

[lostsheep]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I know more about cave diving related topics than people without any cave training. I know, how rude of me to say that. Have fun boys.

Would you be so kind as to tell me what I know about caves and cave diving please? Please tell me what experience I have also.

 

[berndo]

Would you be so kind as to tell me what I know about caves and cave diving please? Please tell me what experience I have also.

Go back and read what I said instead of making stuff up. I was clearly talking about steinbil and the l13 person.

My mistake is that I keep trying to overexplain simple points to people who are unwilling or unable to understand. Or just argue in bad faith.

Edit: In the post he is refering to I was clearly responding to l13 and wasn't making a general statement.