Question Advanced gas planning for complex cave dive (upstream/downstream)

[L13]

Information about gas planning for cave diving should not be shared on the internet. Should be pretty obvious why from just reading the opening post and seeing how much OP got wrong about what he thinks he knows.

What should be obvious is if you don't post the correct information, only the wrong information will be available. He went to experts in the subject, and asked for help. Your secrecy is therefore responsible for his ignorance.

Yes, only trained cave divers should be allowed to know, because otherwise we have people that think they understand something (which they don't) go and kill themselves. Has happened more than once and people confuse random stuff they see and read on the internet with training.

What an ignorant solution to ignorance.

A cave diver forum should probably restricted so only certified cave divers can read and post. There is zero upside in letting OW divers 'learn' about gas planing and cave diving techniques.

Thank goodness you don't have the power to do this.

 

[steinbil]

Information about gas planning for cave diving should not be shared on the internet. Should be pretty obvious why from just reading the opening post and seeing how much OP got wrong about what he thinks he knows.

Haha, if I'm an example of anything it's adhering strictly to the limits of my training. And FYI I'm very aware of my lack of knowledge about cave diving, never pretended otherwise.

He read something on the internet or watched a youtube videos and think he's learned something. He didn't and the source was total horse manure but couldn't tell.
A lot of these cave diving videos do a massive disservice to cave diving as a whole.
Thinking there can be a gas rule for siphons is obviously nonsens.

The only thing I've read about cave diving is "Beyond the daylight zone" by JJ. Calling it horse manure is, well, your words. And again, I never pretended to know or understand anything, which is why I just referenced that I had read about that rule. I was curious to learn how cave divers think when it comes to advanced gas planning because I find it interesting, and because I hope to get cave certified one day. But according to you it's very important that I learn nothing before I start my cave classes. Interesting take.

 

[berndo]

Thought police. Nice.

Nothing to do with thought police. Telling people in a public place how to do gas planning is asinine. People read this stuff and won't fully understand but are under these impression they do. Some of them go out and 'self train' based on what they read. We have seen a bunch of accidents where people have done stuff they clearly haven't been trained for... you don't think there were reading about it on the internet or watching youtube videos?
Not too long ago there was a video about how you do a traverse in manatee. There is a video by a well known instructor showing how you 'can't go hypoxic' on a ccr. There is a video online were a cave diver explains why he uses a air as shallow dilout on a 230' cave dive.There are many of those examples.
What the upside in explaining to untrained people how to do something they shouldn't be doing? I only see a bunch of downsides.
IMHO a cave forum is not for OW diver to get help in DIY cave training.

 

[berndo]

Haha, if I'm an example of anything it's adhering strictly to the limits of my training.

You might but a lot of people have access to this.

If we could poll cave divers about whether they think it's good idea to discuss and explain gas planning to untrained people, I'm pretty sure most would be against.

 

[lostsheep]

You might but a lot of people have access to this.

If we could poll cave divers about whether they think it's good idea to discuss and explain gas planning to untrained people, I'm pretty sure most would be against.

“Polling” in this thread makes it look like you are in the minority.

Talking about a subject isn’t the problem , trusting your life to what you learned from some guy on the internet is.

 

[berndo]

“Polling” in this thread makes it look like you are in the minority.

I didn't say polling this thread, I said cave divers. Obviously the OW divers don't like what I said.
Why would you want you give untrained people a lesson in something they should be doing while there is a high change they misunderstand the info.
It seem that we just had a fatality because the victim 'learned' how to do a traverse from the internet instead of in a class. Trying to avoid people killing themselves is a pretty good reason.

If they're stupid enough to ignore this, the ultimate penalty is death. Only the trained (and practiced) divers get cake.

I find it pretty callous to say something like this.

BTW: I find it pretty ironic that AJ of all people wants the cave diving forum to be a free for all but wants the DIR forum to be restricted.

 

[lostsheep]

I didn’t say you said anything, relax.

 

[berndo]

I didn’t say you said anything, relax.

I am. I'm just surprised that people don't seem to see where I'm coming from.
Do people want a 'how to dive a ccr' thread next? I don't think that's a good idea either.

 

[Wibble]

Nothing to do with thought police. Telling people in a public place how to do gas planning is asinine. People read this stuff and won't fully understand but are under these impression they do. Some of them go out and 'self train' based on what they read. We have seen a bunch of accidents where people have done stuff they clearly haven't been trained for... you don't think there were reading about it on the internet or watching youtube videos?
Not too long ago there was a video about how you do a traverse in manatee. There is a video by a well known instructor showing how you 'can't go hypoxic' on a ccr. There is a video online were a cave diver explains why he uses a air as shallow dilout on a 230' cave dive.There are many of those examples.
What the upside in explaining to untrained people how to do something they shouldn't be doing? I only see a bunch of downsides.
IMHO a cave forum is not for OW diver to get help in DIY cave training.

A valid philosophical point; should you discuss dangerous processes in public, or should you keep it behind closed doors.

I cannot speak for others. I personally want as much information as I can lay my hands upon in order to understand what the issues are and THINK about the consequences. Part of learning is to consider many options and opinions. I really struggle when I get told: "that is how you must do it" without the full explanation behind it. My fun-dies course was like that and it put me off of that style of training forever. Sure, I knew three-fifths of nothing about diving at the time, but I find that arrogant and patronising.

I want to know, for example, how some massive cave penetration gas planning was done as it's both interesting and informative; it rounds out one's knowledge as one progresses through the levels.

Also, it's great background reading for when you're faced with a person arguing from another perspective. Do they really know, or are they, errm, exaggerating.

In the case of gas planning for technical diving, it's generally a pretty simple process with little rocket science involved. The problem is always the fallbacks, not to mention logistics -- excellent example in that sad thread where a person died toxing.

What's bad is when there's no information for me to validate my plan -- based upon training -- against other examples.

 

[steinbil]

Why would you want you give untrained people a lesson in something they should be doing while there is a high change they misunderstand the info.
It seem that we just had a fatality because the victim 'learned' how to do a traverse from the internet instead of in a class. Trying to avoid people killing themselves is a pretty good reason.

This is a reasonable position to take, and based on good intentions. I’m just wondering if it‘s the right approach based on a couple of factors.

- More good knowledge for everyone is generally a good thing
- People will do stupid things with or without knowledge
- There’s already a lot of bad info out there
- Learning can give people more respect for what they don’t know

Consider reckless untrained divers penetrating caves with zero knowledge in recreational gear. Would they be less safe learning some basic principles like guidelines, redundancy and gas management? Maybe they would even learn enough to respect the limits of their training?

What about fully certified cave divers trained poorly? Wouldn’t more accessible information help them realize that the training they got was insufficient?

BTW, in the manatee traverse, weren’t they certified cave divers? Shouldn’t they have known? Or maybe they would have been better off if good information about higher levels of cave diving were more accessible?