Question Advanced gas planning for complex cave dive (upstream/downstream)

[berndo]

- More good knowledge for everyone is generally a good thing

No. I tried to explain why.
I don't see what's good about teaching OW divers about gas planning for cave dives, nevermind diving into siphons. It should be taught by an instructor in person.

Consider reckless untrained divers penetrating caves with zero knowledge in recreational gear. Would they be less safe learning some basic principles like guidelines, redundancy and gas management? Maybe they would even learn enough to respect the limits of their training?

What about fully certified cave divers trained poorly? Wouldn’t more accessible information help them realize that the training they got was insufficient?

No, the problem is that people read stuff on the internet and they think they understand but they misunderstand or don't know what they are missing. I was using your post as an example. Somewhere you read or seen that there is a gas rule for diving siphons, among other thinks.
There are people that are OW divers and have easy acccess to cave and they read this stuff too. There have been way to many cases were people thought they knew what they were doing and got themselves killed. We know that for a fact.

BTW, in the manatee traverse, weren’t they certified cave divers?

They weren't trained to do traverses. That's why I used the example. The point is that you should learn cave diving techinques from an instructor, not from random people in the internet.

Steinbill, if you wanna take training in the futur. Email a cave instructor and ask him if you should learn about gas planning on the internet before the class of if you should wait until your in class. Let me know what the instructor telll you. I'd like to know.

 

[L13]

I am. I'm just surprised that people don't seem to see where I'm coming from.
Do people want a 'how to dive a ccr' thread next? I don't think that's a good idea either.

Yes, there should be "how to dive a ccr" threads also!

/s
There are "how to dive basic scuba" threads. Someone could think kill themselves trying to basic scuba without proper OW training (yes it happens). I'm surprised you aren't trying to shut those threads down as well.

The entire SB should be locked and gate kept!
/s

Knowledge is the solution to ignorance, not secrecy.

 

[Wibble]

I don't see what's good about teaching OW divers about gas planning for cave dives, nevermind diving into siphons. It should be taught by an instructor in person.

If they are stupid enough to ignore the overwhelming advice about get trained, then they are Darwin Award candidates.

Adults have to be responsible for their own actions. Children get monitored.

 

[berndo]

A valid philosophical point; should you discuss dangerous processes in public, or should you keep it behind closed doors.

I'm talking specifically about gas plans for cave dives. 'Discussing dangerous processes' is generalising and not really helpful.
If you know any reason why any cave diver should provide untrained divers with help in gas planning for cave dives, let's hear it.

 

[steinbil]

No. I tried to explain why.
I don't see what's good about teaching OW divers about gas planning for cave dives, nevermind diving into siphons. It should be taught by an instructor in person.

I don’t disagree that it should be taught by an instructor in person. I’m just wondering if supplemental information/debate might be better than the alternative.

No, the problem is that people read stuff on the internet and they think they understand but they misunderstand or don't know what they are missing. I was using your post as an example. Somewhere you read or seen that there is a gas rule for diving siphons, among other thinks.

Please note that while I read about the traditional rule for siphons, I did not presume to understand or know what I needed to dive in a siphon (or any cave for that matter). In my case, the more I read, the more I learn, the more I understand that I dont’ know and the more respect I have for not only getting trained but also for the limits of experience.

There are people that are OW divers and have easy acccess to cave and they read this stuff too. There have been way to many cases were people thought they knew what they were doing and got themselves killed. We know that for a fact.

The question is, would these people not do risky cave dives if they had zero knowledge? And further: are more people enticed by the knowledge to dive outside their training then there are people that learn to respect it? What’s the net effect of knowledge being available to risky dives being made?

They weren't trained to do traverses. That's why I used the example. The point is that you should learn cave diving techinques from an instructor, not from random people in the internet.

Steinbill, if you wanna take training in the futur. Email a cave instructor and ask him if you should learn about gas planning on the internet before the class of if you should wait until your in class. Let me know what the instructor telll you. I'd like to know.

Fair enough. This is another reason why I’m participating in this discussion, to see what experienced cave divers and instructors think about whether this knowledge should be accessible or not.

Listen, I might be wrong. I’m open to that idea. Maybe gatekeeping this knowledge is a net positive for accident statistics. It seems like it would take some serious research to answer that question, by people much smarter than me. Intuitively though, the philosophy of keeping people ignorant to keep them safe doesn’t sit right with me. I also have a general philosophy of seeking knowledge that is on a higher level than my current skill set or understanding - not necessarily to push my limits, but to better understand my current level.

 

[berndo]

If they are stupid enough to ignore the overwhelming advice about get trained, then they are Darwin Award candidates.

I don't know if you cave dive. But in case you don't know, cave get closed down due to accidents alot.
I think this is a topic that should be discussed among cave diver/instructors. If you have zero experience or knowlege in a certain field, why even have an opinion on it. Opinions should be formed by knowlege and experience, not by feelings.

And BTW: If you don't care if 'stupid' people kill themselves, I find that callous. I don't want that.

 

[berndo]

Please note that while I read about the traditional rule for siphons, ...

Again, it's not about you. I used your post as an example.

You don't seem to understand the point at all. Maybe re-read my posts without thinking about what you want.

And please email and cave instructor and ask what I suggested.

 

[steinbil]

Again, it's not about you. I used your post as an example.

You don't seem to understand the point at all. Maybe re-read my posts without thinking about what you want.

I absolutely understand your point, and that should be very clear if you actually read my posts. I’m just wondering if you might be wrong.

 

[berndo]

I absolutely understand your point, and that should be very clear if you actually read my posts. I’m just wondering if you might be wrong.

Yeah, that's the problem. You think you understand.

It's normal these days I guess. People that never used a ccr know better than ccr divers, never taught a class but know better than the instructor, never dove a cave but still know better than cave divers. Everbody is an expert, because they read stuff on the web. Believe what you want.

 

[L13]

No. I tried to explain why.
I don't see what's good about teaching OW divers about gas planning for cave dives, nevermind diving into siphons. It should be taught by an instructor in person.

Not all instructors are competent in knowledge. Not all instructors that are competent in knowledge are competent in transferring that knowledge.

What is the point of even a locked message board. You would either have no knowledge on the board, or you would have knowledge transferred not by an instructor and not in person or potentially dangerous incomplete knowledge transferred. Either it would be pointless, or it would still violate the principles underlying you desire to lock it in the first place.

No, the problem is that people read stuff on the internet and they think they understand but they misunderstand or don't know what they are missing.

This will happen no mater what SB does with its cave diving forum. The question is how best to mitigate it.

I was using your post as an example. Somewhere you read or seen that there is a gas rule for diving siphons, among other thinks.
There are people that are OW divers and have easy acccess to cave and they read this stuff too. There have been way to many cases were people thought they knew what they were doing and got themselves killed. We know that for a fact.

And your proposed fix is to cut them off from one of the sources of good knowledge that could keep them alive, or maybe even help them realized they need to get trained. They will still have easy access to that cave and insufficient knowledge from other sources. Locking SB will only ensure they are limited to that situation.

They weren't trained to do traverses. That's why I used the example. The point is that you should learn cave diving techinques from an instructor, not from random people in the internet.

But they were certified cave divers, and would have access to your hypothetical locked board on SB. They could still get incomplete knowledge from SB or possibly even wrong. Nothing is fixed by locking the board unless you also prohibit all useful knowledge from being posted, making the board useless.

I have seen instructors disagreeing on SB about the right way to do things. At least one of those instructors is wrong. I suspect that in fact all instructors are wrong about something. For that matter, all knowledge and improved techniques had to originally be acquired without an instructor, many instructors occasionally learn something from their students.

Just the other day, I went on a dive with my sidemount instructor (the best scuba instructor I have had yet). I noticed him closely analyzing a few details about how my kit was rigged and asked him about it. I was doing it a little different than he had taught me, something I had picked up on the internet. After discussing it for a bit, he said that he was going to change the way he taught to match what I was doing. I don't think I will ever approach even a fraction of his dive knowledge and experience, and yet even he learned second hand from a random person on the internet.

Gate keeping knowledge only works if ALL knowledge is locked up and all instructors have perfect knowledge.