Accident at Blue Springs, Jackson County FL

[Dive-aholic]

Other than that, we really don't need to know.

But what you're not understanding is that, as divers, we do need to know. We need to know if it was something preventable so we can avoid putting ourselves into a similar situation. Training for cave diving was founded on accident analysis. It's hammered into us that accident analysis helps us prevent future accidents. So, for some cave divers it becomes a natural tendency to want to analyze any accidents that occur.

 

[stairman]

Accident analysis is very important to other cavedivers especially.The more we know,the better off well be in a situation.Many examples are in the course material that show what divers did wrong .It is a very useful tool.That being said,it doesent make his loved ones feel any better about the outcome of their loss.I think the moderators of these sites should lock all memorials to comments other than the original poster.Then if somebody wants to open another thread about the outcome and analysis it would be separate from the original memorial page that most of his nondiving family might look at.You can be the best diver in the world and have a health issue underwater,we are all subjectable to that risk.Some speculation or comments can certainly be taken the wrong way by others...my opinion of course.

 

[Jocasseegirl]

I'm sure that Joel's wife will share any information that would help other divers. Other than that, we really don't need to know.

I believe what I said was that if it was NOT a dive-related death (i.e., equipment failure, a mistake, etc.), it's really none of our business how he died. If it's something divers can learn from to make them safer and more aware, I'm sure the family will share those details. . . other than that, the family has a right to keep it to themselves. I'm just cautioning people to wait out the results, rather than speculate on what may or may not have happened. Guessing doesn't help. There's a fine line between guessing and gossip. It's the wild speculations that were flying when Jackie died that really hurt his family. It's like someone getting killed in a bad car accident and hearing someone say "well, maybe he was drunk." My suggestion is to just wait and see what the family discloses.

 

[Spectre]

I believe what I said was that if it was NOT a dive-related death (i.e., equipment failure, a mistake, etc.), it's really none of our business how he died. If it's something divers can learn from to make them safer and more aware, I'm sure the family will share those details.

FWIW, if it's an equipment failure or mistake, is there really nothing to be learned by understanding what happened? Are we supposed to just accept that the mistake or equipment failure is a risk being taken, and there's no way to prevent it?

I do understand that discussing accidents, their cause, and their possible prevention almost always points to some mistake on the divers part, and can be extremely difficult for friends and family to hear. However it's those discussions that, IMHO, get us to step back and reevaluate what each of us individually are doing in the environment, and reevaluating our procedures and practices. A gut check if you will; which is quite often needed as people get more confident and more comfortable in the environment.. and start getting more and more complacent.

 

[Jocasseegirl]

FWIW, if it's an equipment failure or mistake, is there really nothing to be learned by understanding what happened? Are we supposed to just accept that the mistake or equipment failure is a risk being taken, and there's no way to prevent it?

Gracious, we're not doing a very good job of communicating here. Maybe we should try hand signals . Yes, if it was a death due to something dive-related (equipment failure or human error), it would be helpful to discuss it and learn from it. If it's a death due to a heart attack or some other health-related issue that was going to occur anyway (whether diving or not), the family has every right to withhold that information for personal reasons and just tell us "it was not dive-related." In that case, the family's right to privacy should be respected. That's all I'm trying to say - that we withhold discussion on what happened until we have some facts.

 

[Spectre]

Gracious, we're not doing a very good job of communicating here. Maybe we should try hand signals .

Oh you're doing just a fine job of communicating. I'm doing a horrible job of reading comprehension

 

[DandyDon]

Joel was like a brother to my late uncle, Jackie Smith who also met his fate while diving on 1/1/06. Though we all thought so highly of Joel, it was Jackie who shared a bond with Joel that was so strong it seemed they had known each other for a lifetime.

I feel certain that they are diving a wreck or cave somewhere now on the other side.

My sincerest condolences go to his family and friends.

Peace my friend,

Here is a more up to date article. We are still waiting for autopsy results. He was my aunt's brother so hopefully I'll have information soon.

WTXL ABC 27 Tallahassee, Thomasville, Valdosta - Your Local News in HD | Man Dies in Jackson County Cave

My husband, Jackie Smith, died 1-1-06 while diving and there were numerous "reports" spread on these websites by divers who knew absolutely nothing about the accident.
I ask each and every one of you to hold your egos in check and not to analyze the accident until the medical examiner completes the autopsy. Even then, it will be several weeks (up to 6) for all toxicology reports to be finalized. People have NO idea what words on these websites can do to a family member. I do. I have been there and now I am having to go through it again by supporting Joel's wife. Do the same and don't make assumptions. Thank you. Lisa Ratcliffe Smith

There is also a thread in Condolences forum with regard to Joel's loss: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/passings/237649-marianna-accident.html

Lisa, I am sorry for any statements here that may have seemed inappropriate as well as your loss. The purpose of this Accidents forum is so that others can try to learn and prevent and while it is very, very rare that anyone intends to criticize a diver who cannot be here to explain - sometimes it may appear so in our what-if discussions seeking the possibilities. SB used to not allow the names of victims to be used so that Google searches would not lead family members to our learning discussions; perhaps we should go back to that policy.

Please do accept that the overwhelming majority here who read these discussions are very sorry for your loss and wish you the best in your grieving and recovery.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Accident analysis is very important to other cavedivers especially.The more we know,the better off well be in a situation.Many examples are in the course material that show what divers did wrong .It is a very useful tool.That being said,it doesent make his loved ones feel any better about the outcome of their loss.I think the moderators of these sites should lock all memorials to comments other than the original poster.Then if somebody wants to open another thread about the outcome and analysis it would be separate from the original memorial page that most of his nondiving family might look at.You can be the best diver in the world and have a health issue underwater,we are all subjectable to that risk.Some speculation or comments can certainly be taken the wrong way by others...my opinion of course.

True. But this is the Accidents and Incidents forum, not the Memorial forum.

If it's a death due to a heart attack or some other health-related issue that was going to occur anyway (whether diving or not), the family has every right to withhold that information for personal reasons and just tell us "it was not dive-related." In that case, the family's right to privacy should be respected. That's all I'm trying to say - that we withhold discussion on what happened until we have some facts.

But how will we know the "other health-related issue" would occur anyway without analyzing the incident? Seriously, the question of whether PFOs contribute to DCS is still be analyzed. There are conflicting studies. If no divers who were bent ever revealed they had PFOs, we wouldn't even be doing studies on it. If there was an underlying health condition that contributed to this and was exasperated by the extra atmosphere of pressure and knowing this could prevent someone else from dying, shouldn't it be something that's discussed? I'm not saying the family needs to tell anyone what the cause of death was. If they don't want to reveal that, it's their choice. But there will be discussions on this. And those discussions will tend towards speculation with the lack of factual information that could clear things up. No one is trying to blame Joel for what happened to him. We all feel the loss. Hell, I was in the place where he died less than 10 hours after he died there! While I was getting my gear to the water I saw the tire tracks in the sand where the rescue crews had driven up to the water earlier in the day. And yes, it was very sobering just thinking about what happened.

I have my own thoughts about what happened based on information I've heard. None of it is horrible information. I won't speculate about it on a public forum, though, in any way, unless it's brought up by someone else first. So you don't have to worry about that. But, like I stated before, the only likely results you'll get from the ME are drowning and embolism. It's doubtful they'll come up with anything else. Most CODs I've seen are "cardiac arrest". Everyone eventually dies of cardiac arrest. What the CODs don't state is what caused the cardiac arrest.

 

[infxnrn]

Very interesting reading the threads. Thank you Deb for your support and the rest of the divers. We got back today from Joel's funeral, not fun.

Just a few comments. I have NO problems with discussions of accidents.......just get your freaking facts right (wait till ALL the facts are in before being first out of the gate). You do learn from each others mistakes. No, not all deaths are a result of cardiac failure (kids normally die of pulmonary failure not cardiac failure). Yes, ME's will dictate, in detail, in the final autopsy what the cause of death was, if possible. I'm an RN and have read numerous autopsy reports over the years. Some ME's are more detailed than others but all give a detailed report.

In closing, please pray for Christy and keep her in your thoughts and prayers. It was difficult for her.
Thank you, Lisa

 

[Dive-aholic]

No, not all deaths are a result of cardiac failure (kids normally die of pulmonary failure not cardiac failure).

Reread my post. I said "Most CODs I've seen are cardiac arrest."

Yes, ME's will dictate, in detail, in the final autopsy what the cause of death was, if possible. I'm an RN and have read numerous autopsy reports over the years. Some ME's are more detailed than others but all give a detailed report.

You're right, MEs will be detailed, if possible...and if necessary, which is usually during homicide cases, etc. In most situations, with most MEs, that's not the case. I'm also an RN and have worked in several different counties. My experience is that most are not that detailed. And I can tell you that the new ME in the area is still busy learning his new job that he's not likely to spend too much time working on cases such as Joel's.