A very bad week in Florida

[MikeFerrara]

Yea,

Without taking sides, it's clear something here was "broken", and honestly, I think the instructor's role is to break the cycle and fix things, or let the student be on their way. I've had to do this in my professional life, and sometimes you just take the good with the bad. It is probably not possible for the instructor to do due diligence on the student (unless it's a special case) so that burden really must fall to the student.

I spent hours grilling the person I chose to be my technical instructor, and would encourage anyone else to do the same.

I agree something was broken. From the marks and tracks I've seen in the cave, I think sopmething is broken in a lot of classes.

I've had difficult students. Some that were borderline confrontational, some thought they already knew everything and some who were sensitive and didn't appreciate my bluntness in briefing/debriefing. The instructor has a professional responsibility to break the cycle and keep things safe but as a diver, the student is also responsible. I think this is especially true at higher levels of training where the student should already know a great deal about what's going on.

I don't know whos fault this was but it seems clear that niether party can claim success. This student is an instructor and a tech diver? He doesn't know how to pick an instructor or when to back out? He doesn't know that he's going to have to be neutral, trimmed, non-silting and have to reach his valves? He's going to whine because of the way the instructor debriefed him? The cave instructor, by his own admission kept taking the student into the cave flutter kicking and bouncing off the floor and ceiling? I don't care whos word you take, it doesn't pain a pretty picture for either of them.

 

[Doubles]

I don't care whos word you take, it doesn't pain a pretty picture for either of them.

I agree - there is more silt in this thread than in the caves at the moment.

Without actually being there - none of us will ever really know what happened. That said if my silt filter is working properly I would say there are plenty of issues with both sides of this tale- the student and the instructor -

I do have one comment on part of the OP's original post.

IMHO recreational training agencies should not cross into tech training. Tech training agencies should not cross into recreational training. I don't see that as a good mix.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Bruciebabe]

I am going to Menorca in Spain for just over a week of diving. I am taking my drysuit, reels, gaiters etc. It will be solid skills, working on fine tuning my buoyancy. In particular I will be working on staying absolutely perfectly still and fixed in my chosen position when laying jumps and gaps and whilst deploying cookies and line arrows.

Obviously this time my logbook won't be vandalised.

 

[AXL72]

Obviously this time my logbook won't be vandalised.

You got the assessment of childish vandalism straight. Both parties agree the pages were tornout.

This bothers me.

Hey, you all should go on judge judy. As mr. mike Ferrara stated, both of your credibilities have been smeared. Duke it out. i will tape that episode of judge judy

and brucie...whatever you do...dont get killed...cause that will be vindication to CI.

and i sense a leaning of oppinion to CI's side ofthe story. imagine if you get killed. Boi! everyone will be trash talking ya...except me..i am kind of leaning to your side...just food for thought.

 

[Meng_Tze]

As it has been said before, at a certain level, you should be able to find the instructor that best matches your learning style, and who you can at least live with during the course.

Bruce mentioned on a blog what his experience was and correctly, even respectfully, avoided mentioning the name of the instructor. We were all guessing (some were maybe less guessing than others) who the instructor was. There as no immediate 'danger for the livelyhood' of the instructor as was mentioned in this thread and on TDS. There was no direct link between the blogged events and the identification of the instructor.

At that point it was merely some report/opinions of a blogger. Something we could learn from.....: pick your instructors carefully.

Then for some reason (peer pressure I assume) Bruce mentioned the name..... now the instructor has recourse, and rightfully responds with other comments (Tom Mount) included.

It was all well and fine untill Bruce mentioned the name of the instructor, no harm was done.


That was the critical mistake here. I think it was bad form to do so since up to that point it was (should have been) a learning experience for Bruce and others reading the posts/blog.

:shakehead

There is an old chinese saying:

"Whatever happens, do not discuss it. You can not clean up spilled water"
(for those smart..ses who want to show you can... take it in context of being said 2500 years ago)

 

[DiveMonkeys]

Egos on Collision Course

One thing I've noticed is the diving community in general is ego-driven, and no more so than in the Tech and Cave Diving communities. Ego involves pride, and pride is the question of "who is right?" Humility, on the other hand, is "what is the right thing to do?"

I, and others I've trained with, spoken to, and read their posts, have all faced humility on the path from Cavern to Cave diver. In other words, we've been humbled. The first day of my wife's Cavern class she was asked if she got her Divemaster certification from a Cracker Jack box. She just completed nearly 200 hours of training to reach Full Cave, Advanced Nitrox, and Deco Procedures, and she will tell you that the question on the first day was a legitimate question. It hurt at first, but she was able to overcome the adversity.

And, isn't that what Cave Diving training is about--how to overcome adversity? Having read both sides, I am surprised your CI gave you so many opportunities to overcome adversity, and yet I've been in classes both as student and instructor, and even in my work as a Business Consultant, where you see moments of brilliance that may help the student overcome the adversity they face...so you give them another chance...and another chance...and another chance, but in the end it's not so much the physical skills that are lacking, as it is the mental ability to overcome adversity. Problem solving, conflict resolution, listening to what the instructor is really trying to teach you, as opposed to you wanting to learn what you think you ought to learn involves much more humility than pride.

BTW, I was at Peacock/Orange Grove that day, and if you're having trouble with the dressing down you received, then perhaps Cave Diving is too adverse. My wife asked our CI several times why he didn't enumerate the positive things--the things she was doing right--and he replied "because the things you're doing right probably won't kill you."

Side Note: Drysuit leaks do happen--even to the best of instructors--it seemed like your instructor was doing his level best to handle the adversity and keep the class moving.

 

[rjack321]

BobbyF's post #35 should be required reading. Hats off to you on that one, excellent.

 

[AXL72]

so that's it? no more mudslinging?

damnit

ok cool...so shake hands...smooches smooches...."no regrets"?

 

[Carribeandiver]

In my line of work, I have found there are always 3 stories. One by the accused, one by the prosecutors and the third is actually what happened. In this case, there is little chance of discovering the 3rd story unless we send out investigators and talk with people who may have been present during these series of dives and land instruction.
Because an instructor is considered good by most does not mean he is good for a particular individual. Many factors can cause an otherwise good instructor to be not so good and what those factors are is not the point.
The one thing I am taking away from this spitting contest is I am not taking any lessons from Martin Robinson and I am not going cave diving with Brucie. And my reasoning is that both bear some responsibility from this debacle.

 

[in_cavediver]

Egos on Collision Course

One thing I've noticed is the diving community in general is ego-driven, and no more so than in the Tech and Cave Diving communities. Ego involves pride, and pride is the question of "who is right?" Humility, on the other hand, is "what is the right thing to do?"

I am not sure I completely agree on the Ego side. There are definitely some very ego centric promimant cave divers but from my interactions with other cave divers, I personally see more passion than ego.

I to was around Orange Grove/Peacock on the 17th in the morning but had to leave town that afternoon so I might have missed the fireworks.