A very bad week in Florida
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AZTEK DIVER
Contributor
Dive-aholic:
While I don't agree with the instructors choice of taking him into the cave at all, based on his skills, I read a post on TDS by the other students in the class, and they have high praise for his teaching skills and how everything was handled, they plan on taking future classes from him and did not feel berated by him.
daniel f aleman
Contributor
It's the responsibility of the instructor to determine whether a student is ready or capable of handling a certain level of instruction. If an instructor takes on a student WITHOUT determining whether that student IS ready to handle that certain level of instruction, the instructor is commiting an act that should result in having his certification revoked.
An instructor should NEVER berate or insult a student for any reason, that defies the instructor's purpose.
An instructor should NEVER berate or insult a student for any reason, that defies the instructor's purpose.
SparticleBrane
Contributor
Cave diving is pretty dangerous stuff if you don't know what you're doing and don't have the proper mindset. From what's been posted earlier, you don't have either. Sounds to me like someone getting on your case about it is exactly what you need.
SparticleBrane
Contributor
Perhaps we can agree to disagree about different teaching styles? Personally I dislike the "Hold my hand, here's a star because you're special!" style.daniel f aleman:
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SparticleBrane:
Of course, it doesn't have to be an either/or... there's lot's of good teaching somewhere in between.
Ana
.
If more people had your philosophy life would be so much better. I don't have the strength to offer fists left and right, but I manage to send the message.
This is adult training, isn't it? There should be no reasson for "getting on your case" or "berating" just as there should be no room for hand holding or giving out lolly-pops and the end of each chapter.
An adult enters into a contract with another adult. This is done freely by both parties.
Instructor defines objectives, path to achieve those objectives and performance required to obtain the signature. If the student agrees the only thing left is for the student to get the behind in gear and the instructor to point out when the student gets off the path.
Why would an adult require another person to call him names or "get on his case" in order to come back to the path. Maybe I'm reading a tone in some of these responses but all of this "life or death" drama is a bit exagerated. Cave diving should be taking seriously but driving a motor vehicle to the cave provides just a much (or more) chances to get kill.
Drill-seargent style teaching may work but in no way should be considered the "ONLY" way.
This is adult training, isn't it? There should be no reasson for "getting on your case" or "berating" just as there should be no room for hand holding or giving out lolly-pops and the end of each chapter.
An adult enters into a contract with another adult. This is done freely by both parties.
Instructor defines objectives, path to achieve those objectives and performance required to obtain the signature. If the student agrees the only thing left is for the student to get the behind in gear and the instructor to point out when the student gets off the path.
Why would an adult require another person to call him names or "get on his case" in order to come back to the path. Maybe I'm reading a tone in some of these responses but all of this "life or death" drama is a bit exagerated. Cave diving should be taking seriously but driving a motor vehicle to the cave provides just a much (or more) chances to get kill.
Drill-seargent style teaching may work but in no way should be considered the "ONLY" way.
Ana:
My comments relate to technical training only - My beliefs are different for recreation instruction.
I agree that there isn't any need for name calling or belittling of anyone.
I do not think the discussion relating to life and death in technical diving or technical diving training is dramatic or exaggerated. Diving is dramatically different when you cannot ascend directly to the surface when some problem arises.
For my tech training I want an instructor who will tell me what I am doing wrong and not have to worry about being politically correct about it. I also don't need them to tell me what is working right, if the instructor doesn't tell me I'm doing it wrong then I already know the rest is at a passing level. I want to concentrate on what needs to be improved.
I also think a very good instructor will know what the student needs in the way of motivation.
At the end of the day both parties have choices - not every instructor/student pair will work out
Cheers
Steve
I haven't taken a cave class, but I plan to. But I did do five years of surgical residency, which is training where mistakes cost lives. There, you are expected to perform at the highest level possible all the time, and no slack is cut for failures.
There are different kinds of teachers in surgery. Some are sarcastic, abusive or shout, and you work hard out of fear. Some lead by example, and you work hard because you can't imagine ever disappointing them. Some people can point out your failings so that you see them and understand how to improve, and some just seem to want to be sure you feel as bad as possible about having them in the first place.
My Fundies instructor doesn't mince words, and when you are done with a class with him, you have no doubt where you stand and what he thinks. But at no time is he loud, angry, abusive, or sarcastic. He's critical, and he will say you are not doing very well, or you need to clean up your act, but he doesn't attack the person, just the performance. And most important of all, you NEVER have the feeling he doesn't think you can do it.
When you are teaching critical material, you have to be picky and hold standards. There is never any good reason, in my opinion, to go out of your way to make someone feel as bad as possible, unless that person has demonstrated a bad attitude or a failure to learn from less civilized teaching.
As a surgical instructor, I have stood in the middle of the ICU and screamed at a resident, but that was after three weeks of seeing the same kinds of mistakes made (out of laziness and lack of care) with no improvement despite my efforts to sit the resident down and calmly explain where he was falling short and what I expected to see instead. Screaming was the last resort, and that didn't work, either.
There are different kinds of teachers in surgery. Some are sarcastic, abusive or shout, and you work hard out of fear. Some lead by example, and you work hard because you can't imagine ever disappointing them. Some people can point out your failings so that you see them and understand how to improve, and some just seem to want to be sure you feel as bad as possible about having them in the first place.
My Fundies instructor doesn't mince words, and when you are done with a class with him, you have no doubt where you stand and what he thinks. But at no time is he loud, angry, abusive, or sarcastic. He's critical, and he will say you are not doing very well, or you need to clean up your act, but he doesn't attack the person, just the performance. And most important of all, you NEVER have the feeling he doesn't think you can do it.
When you are teaching critical material, you have to be picky and hold standards. There is never any good reason, in my opinion, to go out of your way to make someone feel as bad as possible, unless that person has demonstrated a bad attitude or a failure to learn from less civilized teaching.
As a surgical instructor, I have stood in the middle of the ICU and screamed at a resident, but that was after three weeks of seeing the same kinds of mistakes made (out of laziness and lack of care) with no improvement despite my efforts to sit the resident down and calmly explain where he was falling short and what I expected to see instead. Screaming was the last resort, and that didn't work, either.
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