A different take on Master Scuba Diver

[tursiops]

Something not yet mentioned regarding AOW as a precursor to MSD: Since 2016 the AOW course has included a section called, Thinking Like a Diver. It is a mandatory addition to AOW, beyond the 5 sampler dives. Its purpose is to address things like gas management, situational awareness and buddy communications, planning the dive, thinking about risk management, and using best practices. There is a new 18-page chapter chapter in the AOW manual about this, and the instructor has a special slate to help guide him/her with leading questions before and after each of the training dives. Again, how embedded this material is in the AOW dives is up to the instructor, so -- as always -- good instructors use it well, bad instructors ignore it. But the material is there in the manual, so the folks who ae convinced they can learn nearly anything just by reading it, please read it.

 

[crofrog]

What would a meaningful amateur dive capstone certification look like? What combination of training and experience, documented by a training org, would make you say "Yeah, that guy probably knows what he is doing"?

Gue rec 2

 

[Zef]

Since MSD is a purchased card instead of an actual course, even in this case literally the only reason to pick up the MSD is vanity.

I agree with everything you stated except for the above as I believe your statement is PADI specific (perhaps some other agencies as well). NAUI, as you may know, MSD is an actual course and is a perquisite to advance on to professional level training such as Dive Master, Assistant Instructor, and Instructor. I will say though that for someone that does not plan to go on to professional level certification within NAUI, the MSD certification does not offer a diver much beyond a better understanding of factors that affect diving, diving environments, and dive theory....it doesn't allow a diver to do anything they could not do if they already poses Open Water, Advanced, and Nitrox. The NAUI MSD course does provide training on search and recovery, and some rescue training as well. It is a good course for the diver that is interested in increasing their knowledge about diving science and recreational diving planning.

As one who is certified as a NAUI MSD and PADI Divemaster, I can state 2 things....the quality of the instructor has everything to do with the quality of the course and the certification, and PADI's Divemaster course pales in comparison to NAUI MSD with regards to expected knowledge and skills. If one was to complete the NAUI MSD certification with a good instructor that has high standards, they will be well prepared and have an easy time with the PADI Divemaster curriculum....not so much the other way around.

The fact is that the NAUI MSD certification sorta lives in the shadows of PADI's MSD program....even on ScubaBoard whenever the topic of MSD comes up, the posts are invariably referring to PADI's program...and because PADI's program is kinda of fluff and ego fodder, NAUI's MSD certification is often inadvertently (and ignorantly) painted the same.

-Z

 

[pauldw]

This business about PADI MSD proving one is an elite diver, is hogwash. I know with absolute certainty that MSD does not prove someone is an elite, wondrous diver. How do I know that? Because I am a MSD, and I'm a long way from being a good diver. Just a beginner, still.

As for the idea about MSD having a test, that's a great idea! I would suggest something like a helicopter drop through a dense kelp canopy at night, requiring underwater navigation to some object located on the bottom, and then after marking it with a DSMB, a surf exit.

And as for bloodsuckers (sorry, for a moment I was thinking that the thread was talking about realtors), lawyers are making 40% of judgments? Dang! I need to give up being a prosecutor and switch gears! But the part about lawyers diligently searching through the certifications of everyone on a dive boat to see if anyone should have done more to be a rescue hero, assumes more about lawyers than I'm used to. Seems they're more likely to try to shake down an insurance company with a demand letter, and take whatever falls from the tree, than actually prepare litigation. But I digress.

Here is something you can use on your letterhead:

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

And that can be done informally without the need of paying an instructor or agency. Like posting online your photos, or asking if you fish ID is correct.

Yes, but some people enjoy a class setting with an instructor, and are willing to pay for that.
Is that wrong?

 

[lowwall]

I agree with everything you stated except for the above as I believe your statement is PADI specific (perhaps some other agencies as well). NAUI, as you may know, MSD is an actual course and is a perquisite to advance on to professional level training such as Dive Master, Assistant Instructor, and Instructor.

Stipulated, your honor. The OP was specifically discussing the PADI MSD and my response was limited to that program course card.

 

[Ayisha]

...Give me a fundies diver, give me a diver that with a La County card older than my parents, just don't give me a MSD buddy.

Wait, someone can't be a MSD and a Fundies diver?

 

[Leatherboot69]

I agree with everything you stated except for the above as I believe your statement is PADI specific (perhaps some other agencies as well). NAUI, as you may know, MSD is an actual course and is a perquisite to advance on to professional level training such as Dive Master, Assistant Instructor, and Instructor. I will say though that for someone that does not plan to go on to professional level certification within NAUI, the MSD certification does not offer a diver much beyond a better understanding of factors that affect diving, diving environments, and dive theory....it doesn't allow a diver to do anything they could not do if they already poses Open Water, Advanced, and Nitrox. The NAUI MSD course does provide training on search and recovery, and some rescue training as well. It is a good course for the diver that is interested in increasing their knowledge about diving science and recreational diving planning.

As one who is certified as a NAUI MSD and PADI Divemaster, I can state 2 things....the quality of the instructor has everything to do with the quality of the course and the certification, and PADI's Divemaster course pales in comparison to NAUI MSD with regards to expected knowledge and skills. If one was to complete the NAUI MSD certification with a good instructor that has high standards, they will be well prepared and have an easy time with the PADI Divemaster curriculum....not so much the other way around.

The fact is that the NAUI MSD certification sorta lives in the shadows of PADI's MSD program....even on ScubaBoard whenever the topic of MSD comes up, the posts are invariably referring to PADI's program...and because PADI's program is kinda of fluff and ego fodder, NAUI's MSD certification is often inadvertently (and ignorantly) painted the same.

-Z

Is the main difference between NAUI and PADI the theory training? When I considered how to structure my own diver ‘basic training’ I calculated - on paper at least - that PADI MSD gave me a wider range of diving experience and a rescue course. Doing the research before I put the money on the table, the NAUI MSD was unattractive precisely *because* it included pro dive theory that I didn’t think I would use, which in PADI is an optional course at rec level and only mandatory at pro level. For someone who wants to be good… At having fun… whilst diving… It didn’t seem relevant extra knowledge to someone who wants to stay rec and amateur (for now), and a bit, frankly, boring, when what I actually need to know is to follow my computer, know how to use tables, gauges and watch and don’t come up too quickly, with a bit of science. So far I haven’t found or foreseen a need that would be met by having pro level dive theory knowledge beyond what I’ve already learned, which as I said is an optional course in PADI rec. So the issue here is not that PADI dive theory training doesn’t exist, it’s where it is put in the training pipeline. Training design is as much about what you leave out relative to the needs of the trainee rather than including everything possible.

Similarly, I can state why other forms of training are less appealing-not to ignore the consistent excellent advice that is offered, but because the same advice is offered for every beginner on SB regardless of motivation and as a beginner until fairly recently, it can be a bit off-putting. Hence I want to highlight an alternative that has worked for me to other beginners/intermediates, this being the Basic Scuba forum. Although I see the value in it, Fundies is not in my current dive development plan because it is expensive and sounds fairly intense (I have been through a lot of far more intense experiences so it’s not that I can’t hack it - I just don’t want to spend my spare time doing it). I don’t need to expend that much money and effort on a course to make me, eg, a 50% better diver when I only actually need to be a notional 20% better. Same applies to Tec - I actively don’t seek that mindset, training or culture, because diving is not something I will take that seriously (in the sense of the mindset, culture and lifestyle, not safety, frequency or skills base). But I bet that my motivation - to have fun whilst being competent and safe rather than to be the most highly skilled diver possible - is common. Maybe less so on SB though…!

 

[Celt]

Enjoy your time underwater whatever way you wish to proceed. But take the time to get to know your underwater- self, no one can teach you that.

 

[kaylee_ann]

True. I guess it's a combination of the boasting of what is essentially a participation trophy (as others point out) along with the lack of skills that does it.

If a tech or cave diver is braggadocios but appears to lack the skills, my criticism is probably going to be of their course/instructor. The expectation is they should be skilled. Tech or cave certs shouldn't be "bought", but earned.

You can meet all the requirements of MSD, but you only get the MSD cert if you pay for it. So, truly, you can have 2 divers that have completed all the same individual certifications, but because one of them paid extra, he/she is a MSD (with all the rights and privileges hereby conferred/s). MSD is just... Bought.

Just having ONE additional requirement for becoming a MSD other than writing a check (maybe a comprehensive written exam?), It would add substance and gravitas to the title.

PS: I know, all certs should be earned, but my tech and rebreather courses always started with a statement similar to "No more "getting" a certification, at this level, you've got to earn it. If you don't demonstrate the skills required to keep yourself and your teammates alive and safe, you will not be passing this class and you will not earn this certification ".

I agree with all except the italicized. Yes, the instructor is partly at fault for not getting the diver to the appropriate skill level. Perhaps they accepted the student before he/she was ready to go tech, and passed them when they still weren't ready.
But arrogance is an attitude, not always taught. There is a difference between being confident vs. a braggart...chances are, the instructor may not have instilled that attitude. A fair amount of divers, once they get the tech cert, think they're all that and the next best thing since sliced bread. That's the diver's fault. Always stay humble and keep yourself in check is what I've always been told.