Bodies Recovered in School Sink aka Wayne's World, Hudson, FL
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Isn't Wayne's World notorious for having very bad percolation silt? I would think that could turn the exit portion of their dive into a real nightmare for two untrained divers, especially if thay had to use touch contact signals to work out any problems that might arise, and that's "IF" they even knew touch contact communication.
I do hate it for the two gentlemen, but I really suspect they were diving way beyond their training limits. I think that most of us know; under those conditions, even the most simple of problems become killers if you aren't trained in the correct way to solve them.
I'll be especially interested in seeing the IUCRR report on this accident as I imagine that it will answer most if not all of my questions. Also- I haven't heard anyone mention if any bottom timers or computers were recovered. Do we know anything about that?
I do hate it for the two gentlemen, but I really suspect they were diving way beyond their training limits. I think that most of us know; under those conditions, even the most simple of problems become killers if you aren't trained in the correct way to solve them.
I'll be especially interested in seeing the IUCRR report on this accident as I imagine that it will answer most if not all of my questions. Also- I haven't heard anyone mention if any bottom timers or computers were recovered. Do we know anything about that?
I doubt that anyone thinks that you are a liar. You simply rushed in where most fear to tread. You made some specious statements without first checking the veracity of your source. Then you got upset because people questioned you. You claimed several times that you were amazed by the mistakes of the deceased. Don't make statements unless you are prepared to back them up.
And then you get miffed when someone questions your claims. Please do not blame SBers for jumping all over your rushed inaccurate comments. That's self-serving and ridiculous.
From what I've read, the cave community is doing a great job at deterring untrained divers from diving in caves compared to the "old" days when the issue was a lack of awareness. People simply didn't know better. Read some cave books and you see Sheck didn't until he got some experience and started creating reasonable and logical limits, procedures and considerations. Hmmm, reasonable and logical ones.....
i.e., not what PADI, SSI, ect. is teaching. Frankly, a lot of the limits that OW agencies place on divers are pretty ridiculous. Then to make it better, they try and shower the students with praise that they're highly trained, ect ect ect. Soon, these new divers find out that their agency really didn't teach them much and that some of the limits, courses and ratings are pretty ridiculous. So, said new diver gets the attitude that, "bah humbug, **** agency is full of ****, I bet these cavers are full of **** too. I can cave dive!" I'm not saying this is the mentality of all divers or it was the mentality of the 2 divers on Nov 12. But, from looking at my buddies that are OW, buddies who are generally smart and very capable people, not complete idiots, I'd danger it's a reasonable thought process.
We need OW agencies that teach real skills and real limits that divers can obviously see and understand through EXPERIENCE with an INSTRUCTOR. I can sure as hell tell you I'm not going to try making any jumps, navigate any T's or the likes. I'm a basic cave diver. Mike O'Leary sure as hell taught me how to do that safely, but at the same time he definitely taught me to stay the hell out of where I don't belong. Besides him being an awesome dude, I attribute this to real training based on real skill sets based on logical and reasonable limits. NOT what these OW agencies as a whole are doing.
Short of getting the government involved or having rent-a-cops at every phreatic cave, I think the cave community is doing pretty much every damn thing we can. Maybe we should start looking at these douchebag OW instructors and agencies and demand they start actually teaching something other than what I could learn from wikipedia. Then I bet we'd have less OW divers, who are good people, adventure seekers, smart people, fun people, going where they shouldn't because they would believe in what they're taught.
Of course, as always, take into account that nothing and nobody is ever perfect.
My 2 cents. Make of it what you will.
And if PADI, SSI, NAUI or ect are reading this, then **** you for not teaching these damn people actual knowledge! You're obviously doing it wrong!
i.e., not what PADI, SSI, ect. is teaching. Frankly, a lot of the limits that OW agencies place on divers are pretty ridiculous. Then to make it better, they try and shower the students with praise that they're highly trained, ect ect ect. Soon, these new divers find out that their agency really didn't teach them much and that some of the limits, courses and ratings are pretty ridiculous. So, said new diver gets the attitude that, "bah humbug, **** agency is full of ****, I bet these cavers are full of **** too. I can cave dive!" I'm not saying this is the mentality of all divers or it was the mentality of the 2 divers on Nov 12. But, from looking at my buddies that are OW, buddies who are generally smart and very capable people, not complete idiots, I'd danger it's a reasonable thought process.
We need OW agencies that teach real skills and real limits that divers can obviously see and understand through EXPERIENCE with an INSTRUCTOR. I can sure as hell tell you I'm not going to try making any jumps, navigate any T's or the likes. I'm a basic cave diver. Mike O'Leary sure as hell taught me how to do that safely, but at the same time he definitely taught me to stay the hell out of where I don't belong. Besides him being an awesome dude, I attribute this to real training based on real skill sets based on logical and reasonable limits. NOT what these OW agencies as a whole are doing.
Short of getting the government involved or having rent-a-cops at every phreatic cave, I think the cave community is doing pretty much every damn thing we can. Maybe we should start looking at these douchebag OW instructors and agencies and demand they start actually teaching something other than what I could learn from wikipedia. Then I bet we'd have less OW divers, who are good people, adventure seekers, smart people, fun people, going where they shouldn't because they would believe in what they're taught.
Of course, as always, take into account that nothing and nobody is ever perfect.
My 2 cents. Make of it what you will.
And if PADI, SSI, NAUI or ect are reading this, then **** you for not teaching these damn people actual knowledge! You're obviously doing it wrong!
NudeDiver
Contributor
TGS:
That's a good post, thank you. However, I will still contend that those who stand the possibility of losing access to their hobby (cave diving) for one reason or another would be best served by focusing on the actions that they can directly take, to prevent this loss. Actions they take are within their control. Wishing that "rouge" divers didn't behave the way they do, or wishing cert agencies did things differently is nice - but they require changes that are BEYOND one's control. Even actively trying to convincing agencies to do things differently is still depending on change beyond one's control. It's akin to putting the fate of your hobby into someone else's hands. It just does not strike me as being effective.
Think about it - what kind of lobby do cave divers have? Typically, not much - certainly in relation to the rest of the electorate. Just think of how EASY it would be for governments to start banning this activity in the name of safety. How much of the general populace would care? The public is generally short-sighted. Odds are that they would be all for it - in of the name of saving lives, of course.
Even as a non-cave diver, I think it would be an incredible shame if the hobby came to an end due to government interference. It's just another step toward totalitarianism - not to mention the fact that MY hobby might be next.
That's a good post, thank you. However, I will still contend that those who stand the possibility of losing access to their hobby (cave diving) for one reason or another would be best served by focusing on the actions that they can directly take, to prevent this loss. Actions they take are within their control. Wishing that "rouge" divers didn't behave the way they do, or wishing cert agencies did things differently is nice - but they require changes that are BEYOND one's control. Even actively trying to convincing agencies to do things differently is still depending on change beyond one's control. It's akin to putting the fate of your hobby into someone else's hands. It just does not strike me as being effective.
Think about it - what kind of lobby do cave divers have? Typically, not much - certainly in relation to the rest of the electorate. Just think of how EASY it would be for governments to start banning this activity in the name of safety. How much of the general populace would care? The public is generally short-sighted. Odds are that they would be all for it - in of the name of saving lives, of course.
Even as a non-cave diver, I think it would be an incredible shame if the hobby came to an end due to government interference. It's just another step toward totalitarianism - not to mention the fact that MY hobby might be next.
scubafanatic
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...I'm not sure the government can legislate away stupidity/risk/poor judgement....look at the financial regulatory failure that's presently collapsing the U.S./world economic system for the most recent/glaring governmental regulatory failure !
...folks, caver deaths aren't a new event...and everytime it happens all the threads always evolve just as this one has...same 'ol same 'ol....it always blows over, the hysteria rapidly fades, and in another week, this event will be passing into history as new 'news' takes it's place, a victim of our collective microscopic attention spans.
...there are plenty of people who think even just the simple act of scuba diving is insanely risky, why only focus on 'caving' ? ...let's ban it all !
You know, a friend, who is an open water diver, asked me today what the big deal was about the training and all. I put it to him like this:
I've spent over $10,000 on gear in order to allow me to do safe cave dives. (Let's not even get me started on the camera gear) It might sound like a lot, but add a $2500 dry suit, a $1300 light, $1000 for doubles, another $900 for stage and deco bottles with regs,then add back gas regs, computers, gauges, bp/wing, reels, spools, masks, fins, snorkels (ok, not snorkels).
Before I took my Intro Class, I did a good chunk of safe cavern dives, practicing the skills I'd learned in cavern class. Before I took my Intro class, I did as many dives in doubles as possible to be prepared. After I took my Intro class, I practiced what I had learned every weekend in the caves. When I took my Cave class, I was prepared as I had practiced the numerous drills that my Intro instructor had thrown at me. (Rick Murcar, he's a hard ass!!) I've easily spent more than a few thousand in gas (and a few thousand more on "gas") and put over 40,000 miles on my vehicle in the past year drive up to cave country almost every weekend to dive. I spent plenty on training, spent long hours talking with way more experienced cave divers about cave diving, learning from their wisdom. When I recently got my first dry-suit, I took it to the pool to figure it out before going to the caves.
Does any of this make me awesome, I'd like to think so, but it really doesn't. What it does make me is a conscious thinking cave diver. The MOST important tool you have in the cave, the one you can NEVER live without is your brain. Without hours of training and hours of dive experience, and significant commitment to the sport in time, money, blood, sweat and yes a few tears, one's brain can't perform in the cave.
Some who are not cave divers often think it's no big deal. What's all the fuss about? It is a HUGE deal. Cave diving is probably one of the most hazardous sports going. Not having experienced the endless drills, the lights out, lost buddy, no mask, one fin swimming, swimming steel doubles up in a wet suit from 45 feet drills, how could anyone be expected to survive in this hostile environment. If you haven't ever practiced these drills under the supervision of a trained Cave Instructor, how could anyone expect you to come out of the cave alive.
Having cave training doesn't make me better than anyone else, but it does make me more likely to come out alive than those who don't have the training.
Sadly, both of these divers did not have the skills and training needed to be at peak performance when the ***** hit the fan. The fact that they so clearly disregarded having the training that could very well have saved their lives is tragic and ultimately senseless.
Last night there were two bodies dragged up onto land at Wayne's World. They had been in the cave for over 24 hours and dead for probably close to 24 hours. It couldn't have been a pretty sight. Caring divers gently removed their gear, noted their condition, noted the conditions in which they were found. They watched as these divers were placed into body bags and removed from the scene. They helped to make sure that all their gear was inventoried and stowed properly for investigation. And then they got to deal with the mental and emotional anguish that comes from this kind of recovery.
When people think they want to venture beyond their training, into one of the harshest environments on earth, they need to have that picture in their mind. We need to stop talking in ideals and start talking about the hard facts. Two dead, waterlogged, bleeding bodies were pulled out of the cave. Based on their training and experience, what other outcome could have been expected.
I know one thing, this whole incident has got me thinking about anything and everything I can do to NOT become complacent and not take anything for granted.
Dive safe!
I've spent over $10,000 on gear in order to allow me to do safe cave dives. (Let's not even get me started on the camera gear) It might sound like a lot, but add a $2500 dry suit, a $1300 light, $1000 for doubles, another $900 for stage and deco bottles with regs,then add back gas regs, computers, gauges, bp/wing, reels, spools, masks, fins, snorkels (ok, not snorkels).
Before I took my Intro Class, I did a good chunk of safe cavern dives, practicing the skills I'd learned in cavern class. Before I took my Intro class, I did as many dives in doubles as possible to be prepared. After I took my Intro class, I practiced what I had learned every weekend in the caves. When I took my Cave class, I was prepared as I had practiced the numerous drills that my Intro instructor had thrown at me. (Rick Murcar, he's a hard ass!!) I've easily spent more than a few thousand in gas (and a few thousand more on "gas") and put over 40,000 miles on my vehicle in the past year drive up to cave country almost every weekend to dive. I spent plenty on training, spent long hours talking with way more experienced cave divers about cave diving, learning from their wisdom. When I recently got my first dry-suit, I took it to the pool to figure it out before going to the caves.
Does any of this make me awesome, I'd like to think so, but it really doesn't. What it does make me is a conscious thinking cave diver. The MOST important tool you have in the cave, the one you can NEVER live without is your brain. Without hours of training and hours of dive experience, and significant commitment to the sport in time, money, blood, sweat and yes a few tears, one's brain can't perform in the cave.
Some who are not cave divers often think it's no big deal. What's all the fuss about? It is a HUGE deal. Cave diving is probably one of the most hazardous sports going. Not having experienced the endless drills, the lights out, lost buddy, no mask, one fin swimming, swimming steel doubles up in a wet suit from 45 feet drills, how could anyone be expected to survive in this hostile environment. If you haven't ever practiced these drills under the supervision of a trained Cave Instructor, how could anyone expect you to come out of the cave alive.
Having cave training doesn't make me better than anyone else, but it does make me more likely to come out alive than those who don't have the training.
Sadly, both of these divers did not have the skills and training needed to be at peak performance when the ***** hit the fan. The fact that they so clearly disregarded having the training that could very well have saved their lives is tragic and ultimately senseless.
Last night there were two bodies dragged up onto land at Wayne's World. They had been in the cave for over 24 hours and dead for probably close to 24 hours. It couldn't have been a pretty sight. Caring divers gently removed their gear, noted their condition, noted the conditions in which they were found. They watched as these divers were placed into body bags and removed from the scene. They helped to make sure that all their gear was inventoried and stowed properly for investigation. And then they got to deal with the mental and emotional anguish that comes from this kind of recovery.
When people think they want to venture beyond their training, into one of the harshest environments on earth, they need to have that picture in their mind. We need to stop talking in ideals and start talking about the hard facts. Two dead, waterlogged, bleeding bodies were pulled out of the cave. Based on their training and experience, what other outcome could have been expected.
I know one thing, this whole incident has got me thinking about anything and everything I can do to NOT become complacent and not take anything for granted.
Dive safe!
NudeDiver
Contributor
Of course not. But they can start banning cave diving, and enforce it with large fines and jail time. They can force land owners to bear the expense of preventing access, and ensuring that NO ONE has access to the cave, qualified or not. They can start banning the sale of trimix or other gasses and/or equipment, or requiring special (and expensive) licenses to buy or sell such things - the list goes on and on. Never underestimate the ability of government to screw its people over, typically using a blunt instrument to solve a precise problem.
Precisely. Once the banning starts, there is no telling where it will end. So, it's a good idea to try to keep it from starting in the first place.
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The government doesn't really care. If they lose a couple of people every few months, it's nothing compared to almost any other public health or safety issue.
Terry
gNats
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Great Post NudeDiver.
I don't cave dive either. But, I thought your post was spot on.
I have been a dog-show hobbiest for years and currently train a home obedience class in my local school district. I keep my dogs under control at all times, pick up after them, and see to it that they don't disturb others.
However, because of non-responsible pet owners, I am charged surcharges when traveling with my pets and I am forbidden from many parks and controlled open areas because nobody wants to deal with the issues of dogs. It is far easier to ban dogs and impose restrictions than deal with the handful of people who do not pick up after their dog or keep them under control.
This is not the only example of where restrictions have been placed on a group of people because the risk of a few.
People who don't like to wear helmets on motorcycles could also chip in on this discussion, and it would probably be more realistic than my dog analogy.
People who ride and prefer to go helmet-less have an argument about accepting and assuming the risk. That they are always in control and prepared. However, things occur beyond their control that causes them to have an accident and, in many cases, a loss of life.
Very few states now allow people to ride without a helmet because of the risk and danger. It is much safer for bikers to wear the helmet and everyone sleeps better at night (meaning mostly the government officials who support the law).
I don't know what the solution is, but I hope that something productive can come out of this tragedy to not only ensure that divers entering a cave are safe, but also that (equipped/trained/experienced) divers CAN enter a cave, should they choose to do so.
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