Bodies Recovered in School Sink aka Wayne's World, Hudson, FL

[bpd375]

I said I wouldn't post unless I have facts, so here I am with facts as verified by the certiftying agencies. Some rumors that have been going around in the community and on this board are specifically addressed:

Joe was a SSI Master Diver. Under PADI, he was a Rescue Diver as of July 2008. I am unable to confirm right now if he had completed his PADI Divemaster training. He had no listed certifications under NAUI. None of this is cave/cavern certification.

Yessic was a SSI Advanced Open Water diver. Under PADI, he was a Master Scuba Diver Trainer. He had no listed certifications under NAUI. None of this is cave/cavern certification.

So what remains in question on the training aspect is whether they had any certification/training/experience in cavern or cave diving. I cannot answer this with any confidence. (Yes, I understand that Wayne's World requires cave certification and experience.) It is our understanding from mutual friends in the industry, that they were either pursuing or considering pursuing training with a NACD instructor, but I cannot confirm this either. That would remain up to NACD or their NACD instructor to confirm. We are still unclear what cave and/or cavern certifications either of them held, if any. However, one of the rumors that has circulated is that Yessic was a cave diving instructor. As of this post, NACD, IANTD, NSS-CDS, and CDI indicate no record of either Yessic or Joe at the instructor level. This is not to say that either of them were not currently working on or carrying some lower level certification, but again that has not been confirmed one way or another by any reputable source.

The source of this information is the certifying agencies as listed above. Please bear in mind that to obtain this information from some of these agencies, you must have some personal information on them not released to the media and not available in public records. Sorry, but the personal information is probably not under any troll bridge either. I have it because I do know them.

I hope the remainder of the questions regarding jumping lines, air supply, etc. can be answered by individuals who were on the actual recovery team, not just in contact with them (including myself), or from a direct investigator or the press officer of the investigating agencies.

 

[gNats]

The government doesn't really care. If they lose a couple of people every few months, it's nothing compared to almost any other public health or safety issue.

Terry

You are right Terry, the government doesn't care.

However, public safety laws are never passed because a senator was sitting around thinking up new laws. No, instead, these laws are always born from the family member(s) of the victims trying to deal with their grief, and with the best of intentions, hoping to save someone else.

It is the family that hires the lawyer or contacts the senator and lobbies for the new law. And, many of these laws carry the name of the victim.

The right family members, with the right contacts and (sorry to admit) money, can build a tidal wave of support. Their lawyers will pull the statics, show the failings in the education and training process, and build a case to protect all of us from ourselves. Favors will be garnered and votes will be counted.

And that's all it takes to get a new public safety law.

 

[tgsmith]

The government doesn't really care. If they lose a couple of people every few months, it's nothing compared to almost any other public health or safety issue.

Terry

Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on your own views, that is false. Local governments have already banned diving in many cave systems in Florida. You've got the local, county, state and federal government. It's already, as seen, an important enough issue to some levels of government and of course private land owners as well.

The state has a good system from what I saw. Park rangers. Unfortunately, the state simply doesn't have the money to maintain so many state parks, hence the reason Peacock(example) is only open during certain hours. Park rangers cost money. It's a government intervention, and it works well. The caving community works with the rangers and vice versa. Unfortunately you can't go diving any time you please like Cow. Unfortunately, Cow is not patrolled.

Personally, I'd rather pay $140 annual pass instead of $42 annual if it meant more caves could be protected as a state park but open during more hours. I'm use to paying well over $100 for a boat charter where I am, so it's an easy cost for me personally to swallow. That's one of the great things about caving, it's incredibly cheap in comparison to deep(er) ocean diving.

 

[I Dive]

Contrary to popular belief, nobody can prevent another person's stupidity. The government can come up with whatever rules they want. You can install grates or whatever you want over openings. If someone is determined enough to get in, they are going to get in. Let's stop with the "We need to save people from themselves" nonsense and focus on personal responsibility. We are all told in OW class to avoid overhead environments and any environment or situation we are either not trained for, comfortable with, or whatever. Some people listen, some don't. It is well known that there are great training programs to do whatever type of diving you want. There is equipment available to make all sorts of diving as safe as possible. It's up to an individual to decide if they are going to take advantage of any of that equipment or training. Cave diving is risky sh**, even with the best training and equipment. Advanced cave diving is even more so. But, I have to believe that the riskiest cave diving possible is the cave diving done without the proper training and/or experience. So, a risk taker has to ask themselves how much risk they are willing to accept. If they are OK with going into an environment with little or none of the training and/or equipment most people have in that environment, they need to then realize they are accepting a ton more risk than other people going into that environment. Me personally? No thanks. I know where my current training, experience, and equipment can safely take me. If I decide to go elsewhere, whether it be wreck pentetration, deeper diving, caves, or whatever, I will get the proper training and equipment first. I feel like that is an obligation I owe myself, my friends, my family, my dog... and my fellow divers.

 

[netmage]

The Deco Stop

Erie wisdom from beyond the grave.... if only he listened

" Just have the search and recovery team on standby!

This is exactly the type of thing that I would like to address within the foundation that Mike and I are developing. This is not just free stuff to cave diver wannabees, it is my hope that as we get candidates to the dressing room we can vett them appropriately through the community. This may only convince a few, but I strongly support divers jumping down the throats of the newbies who want to test the limits of their training. I had a guy the other day approach me for some help with equipment and as we talked he backed himself into a corner, finally admitting that he had been in not only caverns, but in caves as well - he was AOW only.

Yes, it is the individuals responsibility and yes we have tons of water where NACD, GUE, NSS-CDS rules and site rules are "nyet" unless caught, but damn, these folks have to get a clue.
__________________
Dive Safe!

Cheers,
Joe Hartranft"

 

[TSandM]

How many of us have bent rules? How many have looked at a side passage and thought, "It can't be that hard to do a jump"? How many have looked at the passage ahead of them and thought, "It won't really matter if I go 200 psi beyond sixths . . . I've got a ridiculous safety reserve anyway"?

Incidents like this serve to remind us that cave diving is incredibly unforgiving of inadequate preparation (and sometimes unforgiving of the simple hubris of being there). I am about to make another cave diving trip, and I have racked up a LOT of cave dives at my certification level, and am beginning to champ at the bit and want to do MORE. If a double fatality like this is to have any meaning or any value, it HAS to serve as a cautionary tale, reminding all of us that we need to remain humble and cautious and very responsible about what we do in caves.

There was a very nasty tale on DIR Explorers this summer, about a VERY highly trained cave diver who ignored a few things that "weren't quite right" at the beginning of a dive, and ended up doing an exit where she was choking down panic for a long time.

Complacency kills divers, whether it's in open water, open water divers going where they shouldn't, or cave divers going further than they ought.

This story is incredibly sad, and all of us who dive caves should do a little introspection as a result of it.

 

[bpd375]

I doubt that anyone thinks that you are a liar. You simply rushed in where most fear to tread. You made some specious statements without first checking the veracity of your source. Then you got upset because people questioned you. You claimed several times that you were amazed by the mistakes of the deceased. Don't make statements unless you are prepared to back them up.

And then you get miffed when someone questions your claims. Please do not blame SBers for jumping all over your rushed inaccurate comments. That's self-serving and ridiculous.

Perhaps you could check with me as to what I meant by my comment before you assume that I meant the general SB population? I was referring to one abusive individual only who called me plenty of names, not just liar. Second, I am not miffed that my claims were questioned. I had several individuals who questioned my statements in a professional and courteous manner and never had an issue with them. What I have an issue with (or was "miffed" about) is the person that chose to be abusive and degrading. As far as I can see in my review of the posts and the PMs I received, the ONLY claim of mine that was questioned was regarding their certification levels. As I stated in earlier posts, I received that information from a source I thought I could trust to be valid and had the authority with which to speak on the matter. If you read my later posts, I apologized that the information I posted was not correct, and even went back to all my earlier posts and either removed it or corrected it with a note in the edit section as to the action I took. At least I am willing to admit my errors and try to fix them. If you read my post at http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/3975589-post152.html, I took it another step and verified what I could with the certifying agencies themselves.

I respectfully request that you please do not make assumptions on what I feel or do based on the post you quoted, especially when the offending post was bad enough that it had to be modified to meet the ToS. You also have not seen the PMs I have received. My only purpose for being here was for the facts to come out from whatever source they might come from. Which is why I went back and corrected/retracted the incorrect information I posted. Others have yet to verify and/or correct their information, yet no one has "jumped" all over them, and I won't either.

I have tried very hard to remain objective here, which is why I responded in the quote you posted in the manner I did. I could have stated the information directly and could have done so much earlier, but did not for a couple of reasons. First, I can't reference the source of a lot of my information on the events. Perhaps that person will come forward and provide the information first hand, but I will not jeopardize their professional standings. Second, I preferred to refer to someone else's post because I had, in fact already been called a liar (among other choice names) by one individual. Referring to someone else's direct statement is the best form of reference/veracity.

I've done the best I could to fix my error and do the right thing since. Could those of you that feel the need to only provide destructive or judging words you please cut me some slack and stop "jumping" all over me? Please remember that I too am greiving and just struggling like anyone else to make sense of it all.

 

[I Dive]

Is there any chance you can all agree to disagree and move on? I'm far from a veteran on these boards, but I have read quite a few threads and this one seems to be one of the more heated. Let's get some productive focus back to this thread, and let's allow those who have been most affected by this work through their grieving process however it is they need to work through it. This back and forth bickering is accomplishing nothing...

 

[edm81363]

Here in Seattle we like to enjoy a cold Mac and Jacks's. What do you prefer?

 

[PerroneFord]

I usually refrain from jumping into this kind of foolishness, but look at where we are...

2 OW divers somehow got access to a cave that is restricted to not just cavers, but cavers with full cave cards and with more than 100 safe cave dives at that top level. This is the cave communities way of saying "THIS IS NOT A SITE FOR BEGINNING CAVERS". Additionally, this site requires a check-in. Several of the CDS sites do. Another layer of intended protection.

These OW divers ignored all roadblocks laid out for their safety, and chose to dive a very complex site with none of the requisite training. Blaming the cave community for their death is foolish. Pointing the finger at the cave community for not putting an active grate over these sites is about as dumb an idea as I've heard. Let's seal the only EXIT from a cave with a locked grate. Brilliant.

I lost a friend and former dive buddy earlier this year. From exactly the same thing. He was certified in overhead diving, but he vastly exceeded his limits as he had done several times before and it finally bit him in the butt.

As cavers we can only discourage people from diving in these caves. I often dive with OW divers in sites that have caverns/caves. I try to educate rather than jump down throats. I find it works better. And it's doubly effective when you can name people who've died in that spot they think looks inviting.

These kinds of deaths are hard. They are very hard to cavers because losing one of our own is hard enough, but losing lives of people who should not have been there regardless of how they geared up, makes us look bad. And then we have to send in the real guys to fetch the bodies, and talk to the press. It sucks. And I say thank you to my friends who do this every time I can.

These guys shouldn't have been there. Period. Based on what their certs say, they shouldn't have even had on the gear they were wearing. Oxygen deco for an AOW diver?

For those who would like to learn from the incident, enough has been said. For those who are already cavern or cave trained, there's nothing on offer here to help.

Probably time to close the thread and move on.