Local dive shop tanks out of vis AND hydro. Is this common?

[tridacna]

@PeskyMonkey So which shop is this? Not that many shops in the Bronx. I can only think of Captain Mikes...

 

[UofMI_Divegeek]

However, cylinder inspections have proven useful, especially for steel cylinders in detecting early rust corrosion. This is especially useful for cylinders used in salt water.
and
in the US, there was a problem with one of the Aluminum tank alloys (#6531) that lead to development of severe cracking that ruined cylinders long before hydro expiration. Personally, I had six 80 ft3, two 50 ft3 and one 14 ft3 pony cylinder lost to this zone boundary cracking issue. My remaining 50 ft3 from that era is inspected and eddy current tested annually.

One of these cylinder cracks is described in my article at

Cylinder Crack

www-personal.umich.edu

So, while US federal law does not apply to personal cylinders for either hydro or visual / eddy current inspection, I am am a firm believer in having my scuba cylinders annually inspected. My scuba and medical oxygen cylinders are hydrostatically tested every 5 years.

 

[MidOH]

Free fills for you.

....or you'll Arock them on Scubabord. Haha. Normally I dont recommend blackmail, but youre in NY. They spread that on bagels there.

If I have to pay $25 for a vis every year, and $350 for a hydro every 5 years.........so should they. Dive shops created this nightmare, no pity.

 

[BoltSnap]

I have been going to my physician, in the US and now in Libya, every single year since I became a dive instructor in 1987. I go through a full physical exam with lots of lab tests every single time including cardiac checks. I pay lots of money for these exams/check ups. I never had any medical issue or required any treatment. I have these exams every single year. I have never considered not doing them because they cost money or because I am "fine" and don't need an exam because I feel fine even through all of these years no medical issue existed or showed up in these check ups. I don't call this exam a fraud or think of it as waste. I have had friends and relatives, one very close relative, die unexpectedly of heart attacks or something else when they least expected it. They never had a medical check up and felt "fine" not to bother having an exam even every two or three years. I am not going to be one of these people.

VCI for me is the same thing for potentially the most dangerous piece of dive equipment. I became a PSI inspector in mid-80's and was trained by Bill High and went to refreshers per PSI requirements. I have inspected "hundreds" of scuba tanks since I became an inspector (I am not going to say thousands since I don't have an exact number) when I owned my dive shop in NY and here in Libya now. The greater majority of the Tanks I inspected were "OK" in the most part, nothing that will cause them to explode and kill others. BUT, there have been few, average 10 tanks a year, that were "dangerous" and had to either be removed from service or had to address their issues before they can be returned to service. Issues ranged from corrosion that was too deep to compressor oil inside the tank, water, lots of rust from bad tank cleaning jobs, wrong thread valves on tanks, you name it. The greater majority, if not all, of these cases the issue was not visible on the outside of the tank. The tank owner didn't know that there was anything wrong with their tank until we opened it and did the VCI (per VCI standards and training). I/We follow VCI standards and procedures thoroughly per PSI standards and training. When I/we have a question we get on the phone or email with PSI and get advice from them. We charge $25 for the VCI which includes the sticker and $10 for the fill for a whopping $35 (this was in NYC). Doing VCI wasn't making me rich or paid for my medical insurance. It was a time consuming job especially if you include the required paperwork, time with the client and the tools and refresher training my staff and I had to undergo on regular basis. I know for certain that following these procedures and doing VCI have saved lives and have prevented serious injuries to divers and to, especially, my staff who do the tank filling and my customers who maybe close to the fill station should a tank explodes at its most vulnerable moment, during filling. It also saved people from serious harm had the oil or rust remained in their tanks undetected while they are using the tanks diving.

It is a recurring theme here on SB to bitsh about VCI. These anti-VCI keyboard warriors give their "expert" opinion while bad mouthing the experts and/or dive shops that require this service. Tough nuggets to these folks. The overwhelming majority of your claims are false, or at least grossly exaggerated. My concern here is the uninitiated and uninformed people that lurk and read these grossly misinformed posts and start to believe that they represent the truth and are valid.

P.S. The post above from River Rat/ @UofMI_Divegeek comes from an expert who is a top scientist.

 

[UofMI_Divegeek]

Here is a nice summary of scuba explosions (myth or fact)

Scuba Tank Explosions: Myth or Fact?

You have a particular interest in marine biology, but you are tired of reading about it in books and watching it on the National Geographic Channel. You are ready to get out into the sea and take a dive. However, every time you think about strapping on the gear, the image of Jaws exploding with...

aquasportsplanet.com

The price I pay for inspections and hydros is cheap insurance because the consequence of error (cylinder explosions) is quite high. Cylinder explosions have taken limbs and lives, as well as doing some hefty property damage.

Images from duckduckgo image search for keywords scuba cylinder explosions

BTW the cylinder inspection courses offered by PSI ( PSI-PCI - Home ) are phenomenal.

 

[OMyMyOHellYes]

The presence or absence of stickers is kinda a stalking horse.

Regular visual inspections are important, I don't care who you are or what you say.

How they're documented, well ....

If it were me, diving and filling my own tanks, I don't know that I'd be all that fussy about applying stickers (actually, I am pretty obsessive about putting them on, but that's the last important part of the process). In any case, the inspections would get done and they would be documented in a more detailed format than any sticker ever can (the forms are at least a full page long and describe what each of the 18 inspection points are and it documents the results noted - a copy should be provided to every tank owner in addition to application of a sticker). The reports the online tool spits out are 4 pages long, but there's white space to make it easier to read. But I've got 'em for every tank. So if I was a shop, that would be what is really meaningful.

Note: Commercial shops in the US that do not comply with DOT regs requiring hydrostatic testing, in addition to being outlaws, are exceptionally negligent. I would assume that stems for a deficient "tone at the top" and says much about the overall attitude re: maintenance an safety. RUN AS FAST YOU CAN.

If I was a V E R Y active commercial operation, well .... It's easy to say you'd do it and sticker the tanks. for most operations in that boat, that would be 4 stickers a year. I would do it because the customers (at least the sharp ones) look for it and expect it. But I can't recall seeing them on heavy-use resort tanks, except for the last time when the particular place I was at somewhere in the Carribbean had some tanks coming back from local hydro and those had VIP stickers. As much as those tanks get slammed around (filled twice daily and throwed on a boat and pulled off and filled again) I can see stickers lasting about a week or two. In that case, I'd just keep the inspection forms and a three month tickler for each tank.

I have been going to my physician, in the US and now in Libya, every single year since I became a dive instructor in 1987. I go through a full physical exam with lots of lab tests every single time including cardiac checks. I pay lots of money for these exams/check ups. I never had any medical issue or required any treatment. I keep doing these exams every single year. I don't considered not doing them because they cost money or because I am "fine" and don't need an exam because I feel fine even when through all of these years no medical issue existed or showed up. I don't call this exam a fraud or think of it as waste. I have had friends and relatives, one very close relative, die unexpectedly of heart attack or something else when they least expected it. They never had a medical check up and felt "fine" not to bother having an exam even every two or three years. I am not going to be one of these people.

VCI for me is the same thing for the potentially the most dangerous part of dive equipment. I became a PSI inspector in mid-80's and trained by Bill High and went to refreshers afterwards. I have inspected "hundreds" of scuba tanks since I became an inspector (I am not going to say thousands since I don't have an exact number) when I owned my dive shop in NY and here in Libya now. The greater majority of the Tanks I inspected were "OK" in the most part, nothing that will cause them to explode and kill others. BUT, there have been few, average 10 tanks a year, there were "dangerous" and had to either be removed from service or had to address their issues before they can be returned to service. Issues ranged from corrosion that was too deep to compressor oil inside the tank, water, lots of rust from bad tank cleaning jobs, wrong thread valves on tanks, you name it. The greater majority, if not all, of these case the issue was not visible on the outside and the owner didn't know that there was anything wrong with their tanks until we opened it and did the VCI (per VCI standards and training). I/We follow VCI standards and procedures thoroughly per PSI standards and our training. When I/we have a question we get on the phone or email with PSI and get advice from them. We charge $25 for the VCI which includes the sticker and $10 for the fill for a whopping $35 (this was in NYC). Doing VCI wasn't making me rich or paid for my medical insurance. It was a time consuming job especially if you include the required paperwork, time with the client and the tools and refresher training my staff and I had to undergo on regular basis. I know for certain that following these procedures and doing VCI have saved lives and have prevented serious injuries to divers and to, especially, my staff who do the tank filling and my customers who maybe close to the fill station should a tank explodes at its most vulnerable moment, during filling. It also saved people from serious harm had the oil or rust remained in their tanks undetected while they are using the tanks diving.

It is a recurring theme here on SB to bitcsh about VCI. These anti-VCI keyboard warriors give their "expert" opinion while bad mouthing the experts and/or dive shops that require this service. Tough nuggets to these folks. Most of your claims are false, or at least grossly exaggerated. My concern is the uninitiated and uninformed people that lurk and read these grossly misinformed posts and start to believe that they represent the truth and are valid.

P.S. The post above from River Rat/ @UofMI_Divegeek comes from an expert who is a top scientist.

^^^ What he said ^^^

 

[Boarderguy]

If I have to pay $25 for a vis every year, and $350 for a hydro every 5 years

You can buy a new damn tank for that much. Wtf would you pay $350 for something that on average only cost $80 with the vip and fill?

 

[Ghost95]

Hey guys!

So me and my wife went to our LDS to rent a set of steel 100s for some diving in our quarry this weekend. When I went to pick them up, they were 4 years out of vis, and 3 years out of hydro. When I mentioned that I would not like to dive them I got a very... condescending look back from them. They told me the only danger is during the fill, and that since they are already filled I wouldn't have a problem. I told them I understood, but I would prefer to do things the correct way (we are tech divers, and not very fond of bending rules because they "technically" have no risk).

They told me they stopped putting vis inspection stickers on the cylinders because people rent tanks, steal them, and then put them on their own tanks.

They told me they didn't do the hydro because the steel 100s rarely get rented out and "most people don't actually hydro their tanks".

Was I being a stuck up A-hole? I was being talked to as if I was being overly cautious, but it seemed very black and white to me.

P.S. We ended up diving single tanks that were in hydro/vis, and are now looking to just purchase our own set of doubles.

Honestly, of what you say is 100% accurate, that is some of the most unprofessional **** I've ever heard of.

Find someone else. And steer your friends away from them as well.

 

[Brett Hatch]

If what the OP says is true, the folks running this shop should not be running a shop. Asking as a regular poster (not as SB staff): will the OP name the shop? As tridacna says, there ain't many options in that area.

 

[MidOH]

You can buy a new damn tank for that much. Wtf would you pay $350 for something that on average only cost $80 with the vip and fill?

That was the sarcasm. Its just lovely when brand new hot dipped galvanized tanks fail hydro because the tester is on meth.