LDS Won't + 10% Fill Plus Rated Tank?

[James79]

We actually have free fills on the hp100 for another year, but the shop is 50 minutes away. I am also not sure this would be the most honest thing to do.

If I were in your shoes, I would analyze it like this; Tank is plus rated, but they refuse to honor it. So you are paying full price to fill a 72 but getting shorted 7cf on every fill (steel 72 at 2250 is about 65cf). The top ups on the HP tank is free... would you feel bad for getting topped up after using to do gear checks before a trip? I would not feel bad about using to get the full fill you PAID for. If your 72s were not plus rated, the ethical math works out differently. I'm in the market for a new Hydro facility, due to the my LDS uses not doing plus ratings. So my LDS only fills my 72s to 2250.... I usually go elsewhere so I can get 2800 in them, but when I use the LDS for it I have no heartburn. There policy matches what the tanks are currently stamped for. I also see no ethical concern in renting an AL80 to transfill my 72s higher with... If I bought the air in the AL80, it's mine to use as I see fit. If your HP tanks came with free fills for X amount of time.... you bought that air (with the purchase of the tank). Draining the tank for no reason to get refilled would be a.... rude.... choice, but even that would be within bounds... just really not nice!
Of course, my advice is worth what you paid for it!
Respectfully,
James

 

[HeatCker]

your to far from the shop to go back and forth..50 minutes
if the shop would be willing to do top ups, you could take the transfill whip with you and do the transfer in the shop parking lot or just down the road..
then take the HP tanks back in for a top up while you go for a coffee..
there is nothing unethical about this, especially if you buy the whip from the shop and they know why your buying it..

 

[tridacna]

Remarkably complex issue for something that should be simple. Why don't manufacturers have a single standard with standard pressures for each tank? All this talk of REEs, plus signs, overfilling etc are signs of total confusion in a relatively mature industry. You can't blame tank monkeys or shop owners from not wanting to do anything that could in any way violate an insurance regulation. Nor should they have to read pages of minutiae to understand what they can and can't do. At some point, a shop will overfill a tank past its DOT mandated pressure, an accident will happen and the party will be over.

 

[ScubaBunga]

The question here seems to be, do + rated tanks need to stay continuously + rated, for each and every hydro, in order for the latest to be valid? Tank monkey says yes.

Answer is No. if the tank was originally plus stamped. It can at any time be re-plused as long as it passes REE test, even with a gap of non plus’s hydros. New tanks have the ree stamped on them. Finding a hydro place that is willing to plus stamp older tanks or has info or will work out the ree is much more difficult. I had tanks with the ree stamped on them and my last hydro (before I was forced to learn all about tanks due to crappy LDS) didn’t even plus those. Lazy hydro guy. So plus stamps are a pain in the A—. But I like my old lip steel 72’s and hope I have found a place that will plus them. They are off now so I should know soon.

 

[captain]

Remarkably complex issue for something that should be simple. Why don't manufacturers have a single standard with standard pressures for each tank? All this talk of REEs, plus signs, overfilling etc are signs of total confusion in a relatively mature industry. You can't blame tank monkeys or shop owners from not wanting to do anything that could in any way violate an insurance regulation. Nor should they have to read pages of minutiae to understand what they can and can't do. At some point, a shop will overfill a tank past its DOT mandated pressure, an accident will happen and the party will be over.

The + sign was instituted during WW ll to be able to ship more gas in fewer tanks to save steel for the war effort. once the war was over no one cared about the plus but is was in the regulations. Scuba divers are the only tank users who care about the plus sign. Commercial gas is sold by the cubic foot not at a set price per tank. Divers pay the same to fill a 30 cu/ft pony as the do for an AL 80. A welder doesn't care what the pressure is when he get a new tank, he pays by the cubic foot and when it is empty he just gets another. If the welder wants more gas he gets a bigger tank and pays for the greater amount of gas,. Maybe another global war will revive interest in the plus.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Buy a plus stamp and stamp next to the old hydro marks. Presto! It was always plus certified!

As long as it’s plus rated now by the current hydro tester, the shop needs to chill.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Remarkably complex issue for something that should be simple. Why don't manufacturers have a single standard with standard pressures for each tank? All this talk of REEs, plus signs, overfilling etc are signs of total confusion in a relatively mature industry. You can't blame tank monkeys or shop owners from not wanting to do anything that could in any way violate an insurance regulation. Nor should they have to read pages of minutiae to understand what they can and can't do. At some point, a shop will overfill a tank past its DOT mandated pressure, an accident will happen and the party will be over.

Exactly, why not just rate it for the actual working pressure?

 

[broncobowsher]

Reference to "monkeying with something" i.e. how a monkey will take things and try to figure them out. Tank monkey is someone dealing with tanks (fills, etc.) without understanding of the why and how.

There is also a "grease monkey", the guy that changes the oil in your car. In fact there is a chain of oil change shops branded "Grease Monkey". Most of the time getting a "Monkey" moniker is a sign of someone who actually does a pretty good job at what they do but mostly they do a lot of whatever they do. The tank monkey swaps tanks around, filling what is in front of them. Keeping the compressor running and the air filling. The grease monkey knows what oil to drain, filter to change, and oil to fill back up in your car. As long as regular service is all that is expected they do a great job. When an oddball come in front of them, that is where they will get tripped up. If I rolled in with my '72 Honda sedan they wouldn't know what to do. The oil filter is obscure and hidden in those. Come in with plus rated tanks, well there is the regular fill pressure that they are always filled to, not that number and maybe some extra.

There are some shops that have a blanket policy of not filling anything over 20 years old no matter what hydro and vis has recently been done to them. So there are worse places then just not doing the 10% overfill plus rating.

 

[Dubious]

Remarkably complex issue for something that should be simple. Why don't manufacturers have a single standard with standard pressures for each tank?

I was thinking this.

There is also a "grease monkey", the guy that changes the oil in your car. In fact there is a chain of oil change shops branded "Grease Monkey". Most of the time getting a "Monkey" moniker is a sign of someone who actually does a pretty good job at what they do but mostly they do a lot of whatever they do.

I guess I have heard that phrase before, but I never thought about it. Thank you.

 

[boulderjohn]

A 3AA cyl qualifies for the + rating when its REE is not exceeded. (Residual elastic expansion) It doesn't matter if the previous tester +'d it or not

When I first had my LP 108s hydroed, I did not pay a lot of attention, and it was a while before I noticed it did not have a +. They had not said anything to me other than the tanks were just fine, so I figured it was an oversight. I was almost 2,000 miles away from that shop when I noticed, so I resolved to ask them about it a year later when I returned to that area. In the meantime, no one was having any issues with filling the tanks, so I didn't think about it again until it was time for another hydro. I did it with another hydro shop, and, being scatterbrained, forgot to ask about it when I brought it in. They put the + on them.