Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[DCBC]

I agree that more education comes from practice than from books. It's why I subscribe to the "dive more, take less classes (initially)" attitude. I believe there is absolutely a time and place for formal education, as well as informal education with mentors. I tend to prefer latter and supplement it with a healthy dose of reading anything and everything I can on a particular subject.

Several years back, I would have totally agreed with your statement. However over the years, the certification standard has dropped considerably. This isn't necessarily wrong in-itself, but today's diver must understand that many diver training programs are designed to provide the student with a minimum level of knowledge and skill; suited to dive with a DM in clear warm water without natural hazard. Years ago the training was more robust.

The art of any field of study is never learned from books... no matter how many books you read. That has to be gained by experimenting on your own.

Again I agree, but I don't believe it is wise to "experiment" until the diver has a solid foundation of skills and knowledge. As we discussed, this may best be done through further instruction with an Instructor/Mentor (Instructor certification is an option).

But the basis of any education, be it algebra, diving, or other can be learned from a book (and forums like this one, these days) well enough to get you started on a reasonable path of safe execution of that field of study. Especially now, when things like the 5 rules for cave diving have already been developed and are in the public domain.

I think if you wanted to 'get started' in Cave Diving, reading about the "5 rules" will only get you into a lot of trouble. That is not to say that you need to take a Cave Diving Course; I learned from a friend and am now a CD Instructor. Years ago there were more people who did CD uncertified than there were certified. The same can be said for any type of diving. People can learn a skill in a number of different ways. Personally if given a choice, I'd rather learn the easy way than the hard way. When it comes to CD, the easiest way is to enroll in a class. As more and more people have done this over the years, the ratio of deaths to the number of Cave Divers has decreased. It still is however extremely hazardous (even if undertaken properly).

I think Bob and I may be saying the same thing in different ways, though. A book education will never teach you risk assessment. It will just give you the requisite information (I believe) to do a valid risk assessment. Bob seems to disagree that I could find enough information to do a valid risk assessment, but I contend that's because Bob, not knowing me, doesn't have enough information about my risk assessment skills. I trust mine well enough to believe that I could do a dive safely within my risk tolerance, or decide not to do a dive before seeking formal education, strictly based upon information I can find without ever having done that dive.

I don't think that "knowing you" has anything to do with it. The person doing the assessment cannot hope to undertake it without knowing the environment. Accurate risk assessment is impossible unless the assessing party is aware of the possible hazards. This information can't be found in a book. An example: While mapping a tidal blue hole in South Bight on Andros Island in 1971, the ebb started 15 minutes before I expected (causing increasing current downward into the blue hole). The result was that I almost ran out of air and there was a real risk that I would have been overcome by the current and never get back to the boat. A hazard obviously existed (tunnel structure can vary current intensity). Although I had made 15 or 20 dives in different parts of the Cave system, I didn't properly assess the hazard. I learned through this experience and applied what I learned to future dive plans. Sometimes a book is only a bathroom accessory with a duel function.

 

[Superlyte27]

I think if you wanted to 'get started' in Cave Diving, reading about the "5 rules" will only get you into a lot of trouble. That is not to say that you need to take a Cave Diving Course; I learned from a friend and am now a CD Instructor. Years ago there were more people who did CD uncertified than there were certified. The same can be said for any type of diving. People can learn a skill in a number of different ways. Personally if given a choice, I'd rather learn the easy way than the hard way. When it comes to CD, the easiest way is to enroll in a class. As more and more people have done this over the years, the ratio of deaths to the number of Cave Divers has decreased. It still is however extremely hazardous (even if undertaken properly).

Actually, I think if you read and understand the five rules, and ONLY followed those five rules, you'd be very safe in a cave. The first of the five rules is TRAINING.

You are right, years ago there were more untrained cave divers than certed cave divers. There were also a butt ton of deaths (a metric butt ton, not an imperial standard butt ton).

As far as cave diving being extremely hazardous even with training... Well, I'm not sure I agree with that. Are there lots of hazards? Yes. With proper training, equipment and a square head on my shoulders, do I fear those hazards will one day get me dead? Never. I believe wholeheartedly that if I do everything right. I follow the five rules. I'm not an idiot. I maintain my gear. I dive within my limits, etc., that I'll get to live every single time (barring an act of God). If I didn't believe that, I'd quit cave diving.

 

[The Chairman]

Unfortunately, our training has been at best, contradictory. Students are taught to never do bounce dives and yet instructors do multiple bounce dives right in front of them when they do CESAs. Students are taught to stay off the reef, except during training when kneeling is just fine. I could go on with the number of contradictions that are part and parcel of scuba instruction, but you know what I am talking about. Instructors often portray themselves as being above the rules because that's just what they have to do when they teach. It's wrong and it's down right confusing for the students. I know of one shop in Central Florida who does a lot of cert dives at Blue Spring. On the final OW dive, the instructor blesses his students as a sign that they are now certified OW divers. Then he, along with a couple of DMs turn on flash lights and take them down into the cave. They've been reported, but it's my understanding that this still is happening. How confusing that must be for their students? They now think it's appropriate to break the rules when it suits them. Shenanigans.

It's my biased opinion that ScubaBoard has done a lot to correct these contradictions but it's important that we continue to lead the charge. Discussions like this one cause people to think, perhaps to reconsider their actions, plans and practices. Think about it... the Warhammer Maneuver was invented here on ScubaBoard. At first, when we got together, only the true ScubaBoardian knew what we were referring to. Now, many people who are not even a part of ScubaBoard cringe at the mention of it. How did this happen? The Scuba world has become addicted to ScubaBoard. They read our humor as well as our insights into all things Scuba. Heck, part of the industry fears us for this very reason and they go out of their way to exclude us at every opportunity. Yet our collective passions are plastered all over the internet and we all effect change. More often the changes are personal. Sometimes the changes are within an agency, a manufacturer or even a dive shop. Every now and then the change affects the entire industry. That's what I want here. I want the industry to rethink how it teaches and to stop sustaining contradictions such as "dive like I say: not like I do".

So, in a way, we are all Scuba Ambassadors. We tell people more about us by the gear we use, the techniques we dive with and the chances we are willing to take. I think it's important that we all examine our diving and see if we are promoting safe diving or simply enabling risk takers. It starts with us demonstrating the antithesis of the attitude that Tammy has brought to our attention. Are we up to the challenge? Are YOU up to the challenge? I certainly hope so.

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This post initiated a vigorous debate centered on approaches to the learning and teaching of emergency ascent procedures, a discussion which has been split off into a new thread of its own and which can be found here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/q-...cy-ascents-different-agency-perspectives.html

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[fjpatrum]

A bunch of good stuff snipped here...

I don't think that "knowing you" has anything to do with it. The person doing the assessment cannot hope to undertake it without knowing the environment. Accurate risk assessment is impossible unless the assessing party is aware of the possible hazards. This information can't be found in a book. An example: While mapping a tidal blue hole in South Bight on Andros Island in 1971, the ebb started 15 minutes before I expected (causing increasing current downward into the blue hole). The result was that I almost ran out of air and there was a real risk that I would have been overcome by the current and never get back to the boat. A hazard obviously existed (tunnel structure can vary current intensity). Although I had made 15 or 20 dives in different parts of the Cave system, I didn't properly assess the hazard. I learned through this experience and applied what I learned to future dive plans. Sometimes a book is only a bathroom accessory with a duel function.

You've just done exactly what I said. You've provided one more public domain bit of education about a very specific dive that you didn't consider at the time but now everyone else wishing to can find in the future. This is what I mean. I believe all the truly relevant information for risk assessment is available. Recognizing which bits of the information will be relevant to me on a given dive at a given time of day on a given day within the year is then up to me. And doing the risk assessment is then up to me. It's not for lack of being able to find the information, though.

Would you learn that in any classroom environment without having done the dive before? Are there technical courses that do or don't teach about concerns like tidal shifts for risk assessment? I don't know. I suspect you can find both. Does that make someone, with a lot of technical experience, less capable of making the risk assessment? Does that make the neophyte tech diver more or less capable of making the risk assessment? (I'm not talking about the practical reality of dealing with it when it happens. Again, that comes down to an individual diver's stress management capability, which we've already discussed can't really be taught. It can be expanded slowly, with experience, but it's not something truly taught.) The rules are out there as to why we do things the way we do them. The accident reports are available to learn lessons from other people's mistakes. Mishap analysis is out there too. Plenty of it. It's certainly not the easy track but that doesn't mean the information isn't there.

Maybe I'm too optimistic about what specific information can easily be garnered? In the end, I believe what I think most people on here are preaching; education, with mentors & instructors matters. Especially for technical diving.

 

[DCBC]

You've just done exactly what I said. You've provided one more public domain bit of education about a very specific dive that you didn't consider at the time but now everyone else wishing to can find in the future. This is what I mean. I believe all the truly relevant information for risk assessment is available. Recognizing which bits of the information will be relevant to me on a given dive at a given time of day on a given day within the year is then up to me. And doing the risk assessment is then up to me. It's not for lack of being able to find the information, though.

I just did a search on three search engines (cave diving current changes) what I found had to do with the direction of water flow and not the hazard that I described (which makes my point). I know that most people (myself included) often try to 'make their case' in a discussion. However in this one, I believe that you are missing the bus.

My example was an illustration of one hazard, in one specific area. I could start listing hundreds of other examples that are likely unknown to anyone without a similar experience (everyone doesn't write a book). How could you know about these? What are the words that you would type into the search engine? That's why the term "you don't know, what you don't know" is often appropriate.

Once you have a good base of skill and knowledge (someone you trust should tell you when your there, or perhaps you already are?), get a Mentor/Instructor and dive. Increase your experience and you'll be surprised what you don't know. I'm continually learning (mainly through experience) and I've done this for a living for the past 40 years.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Maybe I'm too optimistic about what specific information can easily be garnered? In the end, I believe what I think most people on here are preaching; education, with mentors & instructors matters. Especially for technical diving.

... you're too optimistic. I've seen this before, and doubt anyone's going to be able to change your mind. With a few hundred more dives, you'll have enough context to understand what all the experienced divers have been trying to tell you. Until then, your views are a lot more simplistic than warranted in the real world.

This doesn't require me to know you personally ... it's a cycle most of us have been through. Personally, I had way more conviction about what I knew at 50 dives than I do today ... because I've experienced enough now to understand that diving simply isn't as predictable as you believe it to be.

An example, we have a dive site here called Day Island Wall. It's a current-intensive dive that I've done dozens of times and researched extensively. Timing is critical to planning a dive there. I've researched every conceivable correction that people use to plan this dive, and applied them all at one time or another ... and I still occasionally get taken by surprise. So much so that I've taken to bringing my scooter along as "insurance" ... just in case currents don't behave as I expect them to.

There's a reason they call 'em "predictions" ... and on most of the more challenging dive sites (which tend to be the more interesting ones to dive) there will be variables you simply can't predict and plan for. You just have to rely on having the chops to deal with whatever nature throws at you ... which is why we tend to warn newer divers away from those sites ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

...As far as cave diving being extremely hazardous even with training... Well, I'm not sure I agree with that. Are there lots of hazards? Yes. With proper training, equipment and a square head on my shoulders, do I fear those hazards will one day get me dead? Never. I believe wholeheartedly that if I do everything right. I follow the five rules. I'm not an idiot. I maintain my gear. I dive within my limits, etc., that I'll get to live every single time (barring an act of God). If I didn't believe that, I'd quit cave diving.

The more that I'm aware of the hazards, the more cautious I am. The list of well experienced cave divers who have died in a cave is a long one. Although I'm qualified, I don't think that my training and experience is any guarantee to get me back to the boat alive. I'm an old lady when it comes to dive planning, but I know that many things are not within my control. I suppose that it does depend upon the intensity of the dive being made. Certainly I can feel totally confident on one dive that may give another concern. It depends on the dive. If I'm not confident, I thumb the dive (and I've thumbed many).

 

[NAM001]

jEFF iNTERESTING COMMENT. oops You point out an interesting thing about human nature. WE DO WHAT WE KNOW,. I know nothing about rebreathers other than the very basics in the relm of principle. So whether it is RB's or nitrox, or deep or wreck it all is the same. A situation arrises and you respond with a trainied instinctive corrective action. Though the wrong trained responce at the time, it happened. And this is the example of "what you did not know" The know part, is not necessary training level, mentored level or the like. You knew the right answer yet you responded in a mannor different than you should have. You did not know that was ging to happen when you woke up that morning. Not as a slam on you, cause we have all done it. Each time it makes us sit back and say. That was close but it could have been worse. The next time you wont do THAT but it will be something else. The next time you go out more thinking about the right weay to handle such incidents. Eventually those moments will be few and far apart. That is the point when you are not only native to your training level, but you become ready to take on more advanced training that is dependent on you being one with the prerequsite abilities. That is the drawback with those who go from land lubber to DM in 60 dives. They are better on paper than in the water. Example I took nitrox years ago. Cake walk as far as i was concerned. learn MOD, EAD, and thats about it. I would do the math and get the best mix in the tank and go for it. Max it out and feel good. Then when i was doing some reading about adv nitrox and limits and clocks and stuff i then realized that the max o2 is not the ideal thing to do. It has been a long time since i dove 40% on an 80 ft dive and follow up with perhaps 3 more dives that day. I had no REAL idea or personal experience with the clocks and OTU's counting up so fast. It did not fully set in till i created a spread sheet to do the dive tables otu's, mods, cns clock, for repeditive dives to really see the math effect of what i was doing. No course teaches you about doing 4 nitrox boat dives to in 80 to 120 ft. They teach to pass the course and that is doing 2 dives and those being done on differnt mixes. That incident explained why shops have 32% banked and not 36 and 40. That,,,, you dont get out of the course. Mentoring came int play when asking why only 32 was banked. That short discussion generated a lot of questions about traininig and the whole process. The training was correct for the training goals but not my application of more than X # of dives a day. That incident was the day i found i was no longer diving rec but was crosing the line into tech and rec rules don't necessary apply. 9 years later after having my share of near misses or hits i took my first tech related course. The processes were really easy to relate to.

Let me give an example. In OW/AOW, you are taught if you loose air, you signal to your buddy and reg swap. Ok, all well and good. In a technical dive, its all different.

Case in point, I'm on my Kiss Gem Rebreather, doing a deco drill off of my Al30 with 50% O2. Suddenly I suck, oops, no air. Previous training, signal OOA.
So I do that.

wrong!

Here i sit with my rebreather, my necklace off of my back gas, and a bail out 30 of 33% all to choose from yet I signal OOA and reg swap with my instructor? After that was squared away, I've laughed about it abit as a great example of training, and new training. Thats not from a book, thats the school or hard knocks.

Tech diving even adds other things like bottle swaps at 20ft while maintaining buoyancy, no easy feat, and harder on a rebreather. Deploying an SMB at 20ft with light tanks, ascend to 15 managing buoyancy and tension on the SMB.

None of this comes from a book.

And admittedly I'm no fan of the C Card frenzy either, given I didnt even have my AOW for quite awhile, yet dove AOW during that whole period. But I've new found respect for tech diving I never had before, because my friends all made it look so easy...

 

[Thalassamania]

I have to admit that my childish side is facinated with the idea of a , "bathroom accessory with a duel function."

 

[boulderjohn]

I have to admit that my childish side is facinated with the idea of a , "bathroom accessory with a duel function."

Are you thinking of rolls of toilet paper stacked on an epee?