BP/W is just a tool

[fnfalman]

Fnfalman,
Slightly different perspective you might consider as significant to your "protective" mindset
$$$$$$The vast majority of ads and articles in the print based major dive magazines (rags new divers would read) push vest style bcd or mass marketed rear inflation with few of the benefits of bp/wing systems ...
$$$$$ The vast majority of dive stores throughout the US sell mass market bc's and typically attempt to direct all new divers to the traditional bc (of which they have a huge inventory of)....a common theme seems to be "Why sell one bp/wing to a new diver, when you COULD sell them 3 or 4 bc's over several years, and THEN tell the diver they may be ready for a bp/wing....
$$$$$$$ DEMA could be expected to push the entire dive industry toward selling 4 or 5 items of gear over several years, rather than one piece of gear that could last for the diver's life....the pervasive movement from DEMA is MAXIMIZE SALES, IGNORE FUNCTION.....some years the big push was going from orange to yellow gear, then from yellow to black...many years it was how much bigger a bc was, and how much bigger the pockets were, how many more things could be clipped on and carried (opposite to ideas of streamlining).

I could go on ad nauseum with these examples, but the issue here to me, and many to you, could be the NEED for posters on SB to attempt to counter dive industry propaganda......you must know that the people you are posting to on SB have been exposed to massive amounts of ad material and sales pushes that make the traditional BC appear to be their best choice.....I am thinking we need to give them the non-advertising based side of the story, the one that makes function king, not color. It is not really about whether you can be a great diver with a scuba pro stab jacket--obviously you can.....it is more about helping new divers or other looking for a new BC, to get the side of the story that DEMA does not want anyone to think about....

Regards,
DanV

I fully concur that advertisements and magazine articles are generally full of BS.

I come to Scubaboard for actual feedbacks. I simply take exceptions to pontificators.

Sure, the BPW; in my own mind and in my own rig configuration, is a better BC than a jacket-type. But that's just it. in MY OWN consideration. I've witnessed many a great divers whose agility and ability underwater are beyond par, and their BC of choice is some clapped out 20-years-old Scubapro jacket.

When new divers ask me about my equipment choices, I give them my reasonings for choosing my dive gears. After that, they're on their own. They're grown men and women, they can make up their own minds. I'm not going to force my opinions (and that's all they are - opinions) on anybody, and I resent others trying to do so, especially here on Scubaboard.

I don't even mind an honest, rigorous discussion. What I do mind is the ad hominem attacks by a certain people when other divers DARE to challenge their opinions.

 

[Lobzilla]

I fully concur that advertisements and magazine articles are generally full of BS.

I come to Scubaboard for actual feedbacks. I simply take exceptions to pontificators.

Sure, the BPW; in my own mind and in my own rig configuration, is a better BC than a jacket-type. But that's just it. in MY OWN consideration. I've witnessed many a great divers whose agility and ability underwater are beyond par, and their BC of choice is some clapped out 20-years-old Scubapro jacket.

When new divers ask me about my equipment choices, I give them my reasonings for choosing my dive gears. After that, they're on their own. They're grown men and women, they can make up their own minds. I'm not going to force my opinions (and that's all they are - opinions) on anybody, and I resent others trying to do so, especially here on Scubaboard.

I don't even mind an honest, rigorous discussion. What I do mind is the ad hominem attacks by a certain people when other divers DARE to challenge their opinions.

Wait, isn't it always the same group of people. A conspiracy?

OMG, I got to get out of here before I buy another back plate. :help:

I must not think about that freedom plate
I must not think about that freedom plate
I must not think about that freedom plate
I must not think about that freedom plate
NO, NO, NO.

 

[boulderjohn]

$$$$$ The vast majority of dive stores throughout the US sell mass market bc's and typically attempt to direct all new divers to the traditional bc (of which they have a huge inventory of)....a common theme seems to be "Why sell one bp/wing to a new diver, when you COULD sell them 3 or 4 bc's over several years, and THEN tell the diver they may be ready for a bp/wing....

As a contract instructor working with a shop that used to sell no BP/Ws whatsoever and has since tried to sell them, I have a different perspective. I agree that shops tend to push people into jackets, but I think for very different reasons than you describe, reasons that are very natural and understandable.

In a recent thread on this topic, a poster who owned a large shop cited industry statistics that indicated that BP/W sales account for less than 1% of all BCD sales. Back inflate BCDs are also only a small percentage, but I don't know how much. I therefore expect that jackets BCDs represent about 95% of the total market. You might have a chicken/egg argument here, but if you are going to have a limited inventory, it makes sense to focus on what people are actually buying.

Next, although the market is slowly beginning to change, the BP/W market was dominated by only a couple of manufacturers for a long time. If a shop wants to sell products from those manufacturers--like Dive Rite, for example--they have to make a very large initial purchase and then guarantee a very high amount of annual sales. It would be financial suicide for a shop to enter into a business arrangement with such a company without being very sure its local market could support it.

Two years ago our shop took a deep breath and took a big chance on such an arrangement with a company--Salvo. It didn't go well.

Now that Salvo is history, they are trying to have a complete tech line without getting into a potentially crippling binding arrangement with a company like that. It is becoming more and more possible as the competition grows in the tech market. They still don't have suppliers for some of the things they need, but they have done a very credible job generating a full set of options.

What happens on the sales floor is another thing. When I and a couple of other instructors teach OW classes, we venture out on the floor and show all the equipment options available for divers. When I do it, I go over the advantages and disadvantages of each option. When I show the BP/W, I explain that it is what I normally use, and I tell why I prefer it.

Still, the BP/W sales for the shop are tiny--miniscule. I am pretty sure that this is in part because of all the people who work retail (which is not me), only one has any real experience with a BP/W. Almost all the rest have extensive dive experience (thousands of dives), but they are exclusively jacket BCD divers. Research has shown that even when people try to be completely objective in describing choices, what they themselves believe will be somehow transmitted to the listener.

That is what happens all over the world. If 95% of the divers are using jacket BCDs, it should not be surprising that 95% of the salespeople dive (and promote) jacket BCDs. If shops cannot even stock BP/Ws because of financial concerns, then there won't even be a choice for them to describe.

Finally, I don't think the BP/W is necessarily cheaper than BCDs. In fact, it is just the opposite. Once you have a SS BP, there is a temptation to buy an AL BP. Once you have a singles wing, there is a temptation to go with doubles. Maybe you want to add pockets. it goes on and on. The potential for future sales with a BP/W customer is much greater than with a jacket BCD customer. I am pretty sure that if we are talking pure finance, our shop would like to have people in BP/Ws.

But it isn't happening.

So, yes, shops push jacket BCDs, but it is for perfectly natural reasons, not some secret desire to make more money years down the road.

 

[Lobzilla]

<snip>
If a shop wants to sell products from those manufacturers--like Dive Rite, for example--they have to make a very large initial purchase and then guarantee a very high amount of annual sales.

<snip>

In my case, Oxycheq wants to see at least a 10k order from my LDS that has been selling Oxycheck products for several years.

Sorry, I do not need that many wings. Back to the search on fleabay and another 8 dives on the 'Poodle'.

 

[fnfalman]

I must not think about that freedom plate
I must not think about that freedom plate
I must not think about that freedom plate
I must not think about that freedom plate
NO, NO, NO.

Hmm...I wonder if an Air2 would fit on a freedom plate rig?

 

[Scott L]

In my case, Oxycheq wants to see at least a 10k order from my LDS that has been selling Oxycheck products for several years.

Sorry, I do not need that many wings. Back to the search on fleabay and another 8 dives on the 'Poodle'.

Dealers : OxyCheq - DiveOps, Analyzers and Scuba Diving Equipment

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

Hmm...I wonder if an Air2 would fit on a freedom plate rig?

No, it wouldn't!

Also, a BP/W isn't just a tool, it's a way of life.

 

[boulderjohn]

In my case, Oxycheq wants to see at least a 10k order from my LDS that has been selling Oxycheck products for several years.

That's a fraction of what Salvo required of us, and it's a fraction of what our buyer told me she was hearing from others.

 

[danvolker]

As a contract instructor working with a shop that used to sell no BP/Ws whatsoever and has since tried to sell them, I have a different perspective. I agree that shops tend to push people into jackets, but I think for very different reasons than you describe, reasons that are very natural and understandable.

In a recent thread on this topic, a poster who owned a large shop cited industry statistics that indicated that BP/W sales account for less than 1% of all BCD sales. Back inflate BCDs are also only a small percentage, but I don't know how much. I therefore expect that jackets BCDs represent about 95% of the total market. You might have a chicken/egg argument here, but if you are going to have a limited inventory, it makes sense to focus on what people are actually buying.

Next, although the market is slowly beginning to change, the BP/W market was dominated by only a couple of manufacturers for a long time. If a shop wants to sell products from those manufacturers--like Dive Rite, for example--they have to make a very large initial purchase and then guarantee a very high amount of annual sales. It would be financial suicide for a shop to enter into a business arrangement with such a company without being very sure its local market could support it.

Two years ago our shop took a deep breath and took a big chance on such an arrangement with a company--Salvo. It didn't go well.

Now that Salvo is history, they are trying to have a complete tech line without getting into a potentially crippling binding arrangement with a company like that. It is becoming more and more possible as the competition grows in the tech market. They still don't have suppliers for some of the things they need, but they have done a very credible job generating a full set of options.

What happens on the sales floor is another thing. When I and a couple of other instructors teach OW classes, we venture out on the floor and show all the equipment options available for divers. When I do it, I go over the advantages and disadvantages of each option. When I show the BP/W, I explain that it is what I normally use, and I tell why I prefer it.

Still, the BP/W sales for the shop are tiny--miniscule. I am pretty sure that this is in part because of all the people who work retail (which is not me), only one has any real experience with a BP/W. Almost all the rest have extensive dive experience (thousands of dives), but they are exclusively jacket BCD divers. Research has shown that even when people try to be completely objective in describing choices, what they themselves believe will be somehow transmitted to the listener.

That is what happens all over the world. If 95% of the divers are using jacket BCDs, it should not be surprising that 95% of the salespeople dive (and promote) jacket BCDs. If shops cannot even stock BP/Ws because of financial concerns, then there won't even be a choice for them to describe.

Finally, I don't think the BP/W is necessarily cheaper than BCDs. In fact, it is just the opposite. Once you have a SS BP, there is a temptation to buy an AL BP. Once you have a singles wing, there is a temptation to go with doubles. Maybe you want to add pockets. it goes on and on. The potential for future sales with a BP/W customer is much greater than with a jacket BCD customer. I am pretty sure that if we are talking pure finance, our shop would like to have people in BP/Ws.

But it isn't happening.

So, yes, shops push jacket BCDs, but it is for perfectly natural reasons, not some secret desire to make more money years down the road.

Boulderjohn,
While the way I wrote my post, it may have sounded like I was dumping on shops....I did not mean to. I totally get the issue of having to stock inventory that can be sold quickly--or go out of business. And I also could not expect a sales person in a dive store to effectively be able to sell a bp/wing, without being a skilled user of one....in fact, if they were not, they would probably create a bad experience for the bp/wing buyer, without skilled advice and assistance in rigging, setup, etc.

My issue on SB is that WE are able to get new divers thinking about more than DEMA wants them to think about. And I like sending friends to a real, physical dive shop that knows plenty about the gear they sell, and will provide good service...in other words, I am antagonistic to concepts like Leisurepro.
I would like to think that our dialogs here on SB, will make it easier for your shop and others, to carry the gear you would like to carry. Things like Halcyon, or top quality freedive fins ( for scuba diving) like BW Specials from Special Fins

 

[Scott L]

Things like Halcyon, or top quality freedive fins ( for scuba diving) like BW Specials from Special Fins

Dan - What is your current long-blade fin recomendation for scuba usage here in the Palm Beaches?