YOKE vs DIN

[The Chairman]

However Americans are used to (habit) YOKE

Where did you saw that?

I'm an American and yet I use DIN.

I hope it's clear now.

If you don't want to be pigeon holed, then don't pigeon hole others.

DIN advantages are far more important (safety, weight, size)

Yet, without any real data, this assessment is overstating the situation. I configure gear for cave diving that is completely unnecessary in OW. Your perception of safety changes when you're a thousand feet back from relative safety. However, almost everything I do to my gear for cave diving is still appropriate in OW. In addition to a long hose and DIN reg, I still frog kick and observe a fairly strict trim regimen that drives some people crazy.

many might see it as a solution to a non-problem.

Situationally? Sure. But there's a big benefit to diving a tech rig on a rec boat... the mates generally keep their mitts off of my gear. Don't forget the first real rule of diving: Always look cool! All that techy-looking gear is a sure way of impressing the cool kids, right? I saw a guy in the Keys with a dry suit, an argon bottle to supply it, a twin set, a bail-out bottle, three lights, and spools galore. Why? He was going wreck diving! OK, it was only the USS Benwood with 60 ft (less?) max depth and not possible to penetrate. In his defense, he was training to do some deeper wrecks, but for some divers, they are all hat, no cattle.

it was my understanding when you use a yoke adaptor to connect a DIN regulator to a tank, you basically lose the advantages of having DIN in the first place. The advantages are contingent upon having a DIN reg. hooked to a DIN tank, yes?

Indeed. The real benefit of the DIN is not having a knob on your back looking for an entanglement.

I think DIN will have an uphill path to take over here.

It's my opinion that the proliferation of the Pro Valve reduces the "bar" for this. I can't remember the last time I had to use an adapter in the Caribbean. Yes, I'm old, my memory sucks, but I think I would remember that.

 

[El Diablo]

If an advantage of DiN is the ability to handle higher pressure, then if the U.S, market went to predominantly DIN, is it likely we’d see more higher pressure, larger capacity tanks? That would be quite a shift, involving compressors, tanks, etc… What happened with that in areas where DIN has dominated? In other words, to what extent is the theoretical advantage a practical one?

The 'safety' issue isn't 'theoretical', I believe its technical approach is clearly safer and acknowledged by the major institutions already. I believe the obvious 'practical' advantage can already be seen reflected on Tech, Cave an Wreck Divers.

For the rest of recreational divers, I also mentioned 'Size and Weight' as benefits.

I doubt the US market will switch to higher pressure tanks as you use AL predominantly UNLESS you switch to Steel tanks. I believe our working pressure is higher than the average, heavier and thicker AL tank.
I have no clue of the size and weight of an ALU tank capable of high pressures...

In any case, that's a holy 'new old' war so perhaps for another thread

 

[El Diablo]

But will it even happen? Most divers are recreational only, not tech. While a DIN connection might be more secure, if a yoke is secure enough, many might see it as a solution to a non-problem. Tolerating higher pressure connections is nice...if we're given smaller, lighter tanks with the same gas volume or same-sized tanks with higher gas volume; otherwise perhaps not much benefit.

Note: in past discussions, it was my understanding when you use a yoke adaptor to connect a DIN regulator to a tank, you basically lose the advantages of having DIN in the first place. The advantages are contingent upon having a DIN reg. hooked to a DIN tank, yes?

So far, for a rec.-only diver who mainly dives the U.S./Caribbean region, it doesn't sound like DIN is likely to make a compelling difference to drive a gear choice.

If yoke is easier for the dive op.s, then I must ask how many U.S.-based divers own their own regulators and dive their own tanks rather than rent.

I think DIN will have an uphill path to take over here.

That's basically correct. Fitting an adapter defines the purpose.

The 'problem' the way I see it is that unless you start buying DIN regs and oblige Dive Operators renew their tank valves to a 'hybrid' solution, you are stuck with YOKE, good or bad.

I say this because TECH / WRECK divers also helped involuntarily so that brands further developed Wing BCDs for consumers. recreational divers started using them and companies followed. If the community creates a trend, the market will follow. We have the power,

I see this issue persisting in the US and not so much in Asia & Pacific as more and more Europeans travel to those destinations, driving change.

 

[UFOrb]

Your constant need for attention is disturbing.

The original post was in regards to a new diver asking me if he should be getting a DIN or a YOKE. The answer WAS and still IS pretty clear. DIN is safer, lighter and smaller and he lives in Germany as well.

IF someone wants to dive abroad and the country preferably uses YOKE, bringing a little adapter isn't a big issue. I've dove in the States a few times (Florida). Had to use a YOKE obviously as well as Aluminum tanks that I hate. Again, no big deal champ.

Hoping to dive in Asia (TH) next year, this year had to cancel due to Covid.

ps. Its Germany with a G (caps).

For what it's worth, I've done a lot of my diving in SE Asia (Thailand and Indonesia mainly).
Occasionally had to use an adaptor in Thailand, but it's no big issue. I have my own but the dive centres I've used have had adaptors. I've noticed there seems to be more DIN tanks available there now.
In Indo (Bali, Lombok and N Sulawesi) I've never had to use an adaptor.
DIN tanks are also widely available in Egypt in my experience too.
For someone based in Europe buying a DIN reg makes sense IMHO, unless you're planning on doing most of your diving in N America I guess!

 

[drrich2]

For the rest of recreational divers, I also mentioned 'Size and Weight' as benefits.

Minor tangent. My first impulse is to question whether the size/weight benefit is enough to matter to people, but I recall threads where some of us debated over whether paying several hundred extra for a higher end Atomic Aquatics regulator with more titanium that breathes much the same but weighs a little less is worthwhile. It is apparently (hundreds of dollars worth of) meaningful to some people!

 

[El Diablo]

I hope it's clear now.

If you don't want to be pigeon holed, then don't pigeon hole others.


Yet, without any real data, this assessment is overstating the situation. I configure gear for cave diving that is completely unnecessary in OW. Your perception of safety changes when you're a thousand feet back from relative safety. However, almost everything I do to my gear for cave diving is still appropriate in OW. In addition to a long hose and DIN reg, I still frog kick and observe a fairly strict trim regimen that drives some people crazy.

Situationally? Sure. But there's a big benefit to diving a tech rig on a rec boat... the mates generally keep their mitts off of my gear. Don't forget the first real rule of diving: Always look cool! All that techy-looking gear is a sure way of impressing the cool kids, right? I saw a guy in the Keys with a dry suit, an argon bottle to supply it, a twin set, a bail-out bottle, three lights, and spools galore. Why? He was going wreck diving! OK, it was only the USS Benwood with 60 ft (less?) max depth and not possible to penetrate. In his defense, he was training to do some deeper wrecks, but for some divers, they are all hat, no cattle.

Indeed. The real benefit of the DIN is not having a knob on your back looking for an entanglement.

It's my opinion that the proliferation of the Pro Valve reduces the "bar" for this. I can't remember the last time I had to use an adapter in the Caribbean. Yes, I'm old, my memory sucks, but I think I would remember that.

Sorry but it is not clear at all. Americans are used to YOKE valves. What does that have to do with politicizing the conversation? My remark was against the assumption that Americans = Stupid. I disagree, a habit doesn't make people stupid (unless it is drug related).

You are an American and you use DIN. That's fantastic, I am with you all the way. The majority of Americans still use YOKE or so it seems (that pole idea isn't bad).

Your pigeon saying is beyond my understanding, I guess a quote of some kind?

I will disagree on what SAFETY means. There's a difference about what facts make gear safer and what 'makes you feel' safer. DIN is safer than YOKE for all of the above reasons.

Regarding the data, I am sure that with some research I can satisfy your enquiry.

 

[El Diablo]

Minor tangent. My first impulse is to question whether the size/weight benefit is enough to matter to people, but I recall threads where some of us debated over whether paying several hundred extra for a higher end Atomic Aquatics regulator with more titanium that breathes much the same but weighs a little less is worthwhile. It is apparently (hundreds of dollars worth of) meaningful to some people!

For sure, there are some facts that will affect some people more than others. In my case, as I travel with a Scubapro Duo bag that has 1 zone for clothing and one for gear, every gram counts. I carry my reg on my handbag - by the way- but it has to compete / share the space with my camera gear, iPad, etc.
I collect luxury watches, that also is worthless for many people so who am I to judge about how much people spend?

For me, seeing dozen of valves failing due to poor O-ring maintenance was the deciding factor. As I previously stated, in 20+ years, I never had an O-ring fail on me as it is encapsulated in my own 1st stage and not depending on the Dive Operator / Store.

 

[FF / EMT]

I hope it's clear now.

If you don't want to be pigeon holed, then don't pigeon hole others.


Yet, without any real data, this assessment is overstating the situation. I configure gear for cave diving that is completely unnecessary in OW. Your perception of safety changes when you're a thousand feet back from relative safety. However, almost everything I do to my gear for cave diving is still appropriate in OW. In addition to a long hose and DIN reg, I still frog kick and observe a fairly strict trim regimen that drives some people crazy.

Situationally? Sure. But there's a big benefit to diving a tech rig on a rec boat... the mates generally keep their mitts off of my gear. Don't forget the first real rule of diving: Always look cool! All that techy-looking gear is a sure way of impressing the cool kids, right? I saw a guy in the Keys with a dry suit, an argon bottle to supply it, a twin set, a bail-out bottle, three lights, and spools galore. Why? He was going wreck diving! OK, it was only the USS Benwood with 60 ft (less?) max depth and not possible to penetrate. In his defense, he was training to do some deeper wrecks, but for some divers, they are all hat, no cattle.

Indeed. The real benefit of the DIN is not having a knob on your back looking for an entanglement.

It's my opinion that the proliferation of the Pro Valve reduces the "bar" for this. I can't remember the last time I had to use an adapter in the Caribbean. Yes, I'm old, my memory sucks, but I think I would remember that.

Some U.S. islands are primarily yoke, eg St. Thomas.
That being said, I hate using my adapter, I’ll request either a din take or a pro valve with a non seized doughnut.
Although, pretty sure they need yoke to fill the tanks, haven’t seen many shops with a din fill valve.

 

[The Chairman]

Americans are used to YOKE valves.

Not all Americans are. None of my students used a yoke valve during their training. Always, always, always avoid absolutes!!!

Your pigeon saying is beyond my understanding, I guess a quote of some kind?

I figured it might be. Sorry, not sorry.

Miriam Webster's second definition of pigeonhole (v): to assign to an often restrictive category : CLASSIFY

It's when you put everyone in a group into the same category when not everyone in that group fits into that category. It's the source of all prejudices and a lot of disagreements.

I also mentioned 'Size and Weight' as benefits.

As I've already debunked the safety aspect as being moot for the vast majority of divers, I would also suggest that I have never heard size and weight cited for why a DIN might be better. The differences are minor in both, especially in the water. Also, size and weight would be features, not benefits. I don't see a substantive benefit to either feature.

Again, time and money are probably the driving forces behind the yoke being more popular than DIN.

 

[Centrals]

Very well said Chairman but you are wasting your time on .....
I have been to many places where nitrox is not an option so let alone DIN or adaptor. Few places have adaptor for hire but very limited amount. So diver could be out of luck because someone has got it before him.