Would You Use A Ponypak

[Patoux01]

Hi Patioux01

Thank you for your comments. The mis-perceptions are understandable, absent actually diving with it.

If there's a unit available in Sydney, I'm happy to show how sidemount can be much more efficient than this PonyPak. But trying is always good, so I'd be happy to do it just for the sake of discovering it.

Take 2 minutes to see video #1... Half way through, you will see me (with full face mask tied into PonyPak) swim into a tube, only 36" in diameter. I barely fit.

Okay, there we have it. 36" (~90 cm for other people in the world) is HUGE. I could get in their with 2 20l tanks easily. When wreck or "advanced" divers (I don't necessarily consider myself one of them, although I've been silly enough to get myself in places where both my bcd and belly were touching the wreck) talk about tight places, they have this kind of stuff in mind: At around 2', Steve Martin. There are of course other people doing that kind of stuff, he's just the first I've seen and I know where to get his videos.

A short time later, I come out the other end - having done a complete equipment ditch - inside the 36" tube.

That scenario is impossible, with a tank mounted pony and nearly impossible with side mounted. It is 100% impossible, when diving with a full face mask - without PonyPak and its gas block.

A sidemounted tank is made to be able to be pushed forward and unclipped easily (one clip and it's gone), this is not the case with PonyPak. The only moment a sidemounted tank would be impossible to unclip is when you can't get your arm along your body to reach to your hip, a fair bit tighter than those 36".
I agree that if you have a pony mounted on your tank you wont be able to get away with it.

Admittedly, the photos distort the perspective. In fact, the "area" is no more larger, than if you folded your arms naturally across your chest.

But it makes the whole diver "thicker" and he now has 2 places that could be very dangerous to hit. If you have just a tank on your back, crawl on your belly, who cares about your wetsuit. If there's a tank on your back AND on your belly, trying that might result in breaking a reg getting you in 0 vis.

Understanding that the "clear chest" is really a non-issue, only comes with diving the unit. Public Safety Divers will affirm that.

As far as I know, PSD or commercial divers want to be completely free, hence they often don't mount tanks in the most proper way because they don't care, they want it to be out of their way.



All this being said, I simply can't see how this could compete with any of the redundant rigs already available. Adding a tank for anyone is a matter of 2 clips, some thought, and a piece of bungee.

 

[PonyPak]

Dr. Lecter,

Please reread what I wrote, as opposed to your interpretation of what I wrote (or what others wrote). I never stated that PonyPak was "appropriate for use in a cave or wreck." Those are the wrongful speculations of others, who have never seen nor test dived any version of the design.

Our miscommunication also comes (unfortunately words and photos are limited substitute for seeing and diving first hand), from a failure to define "what version" of PonyPak might be used for "what application."

The Sport PonyPak was developed for one reason /one application: as a positive alternative for those sport diver's who do not dive redundant. The reason often stated by them, when asked is: the imbalance it is too uncomfortable for them to accept. Clearly, you are comfortable with your set up. Others are not. You don't need PonyPak. Others might benefit. In either instance, a definitive opinion should be based upon actual experience diving with the new design, which you have not. Please, at least allow for that option by others.

You have no need for PonyPak, unless you would like the benefit of its design for clipping/declipping the second stage hose - in a side-sling - which PonyPak does perfectly well. It also allows divers the option to occasionally switch from tank mount, to side or front mount for certain dives - which no tank mount can do.

Were you to dive with PonyPak, you would discover the clips work as intended, for their application. Lockable clips are properly used on a PSD safety tethers. I have seen no NFPA rules that require them for the attachment of accessories. And no PSD certification instructor (that has tested the design) has suggested that as a a requirement. Indeed, one of its benefits, is the ability to quickly self-extract in extremely confined spaces.

If you want lockable clips -then do it! If you had the opportunity to actually see the device, you would discover the clip is simply removed from the webbing in about 5 seconds. You can attach any clip you what, for your purpose.

PonyPak is about options.

Could the PonyPak be used for carrying 120cft tanks side mount? Yes. Does it have bungies? No. Could they be attached? Yes.

Is the Sport version of PonyPak suitable for "wreck diving". If the "wreck" is a box truck deliberately sunk in a quarry, or an "artificial reef," deliberately sanitized and modified for sport divers to poke their heads through wide open windows and doors? Yes. For lower levels in the Oriskany? No.

Is the Umbilical system suitable suitable, for some types of penetration? Yes. In part because you have full time audio and video communications with the surface, an "unlimited" supply of air, and double air redundancy in the event of surface interruption.

PonyPak is about choices, for people who could use the extra margin of safety it provides - with reasonable comfort, and minimal interruption to they way they dive.

I appreciate your opinions and comments. Thank you.

Regards,

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]

---------- Post added February 21st, 2015 at 12:52 PM ----------

Patoux01

Again, thank you for your comments, and link to the video. Please see my response to Dr. Lect.

My continual hope is for people to read what I write, as opposed to other people's interpretations of what I write.

PonyPak is not for diving as depicted in your video. Removing it to get into a smaller space? Absolutely not. That is not the purpose of the design.

However, to be able to more easily self extract from a place the diver (maybe wrongfully) entered - without removing his gear first (as shown in my video)--- PonyPak does offer advantages over side-slung Pony bottles, and in particular tank mount pony bottles.

That is particularly so, for the less experienced diver (who account for the greatest number of out of air fatalities).

"Side mount" is not limited to cave/wreck penetration diving.

Some divers, those who have had back injuries, surgeries, or are older, or want to more easily get in/out of their gear in the water.... are now sport diving with side mount 40's (or larger). It is far more comfortable. Could PonyPak be useful for this type open water diving, for fun? Yes.

PonyPak is first and foremost about alternatives for sport divers, who have rejected redundancy, because of their perception (right or wrong) that side slung and tank mounted ponies, are uncomfortable. Those who actually dive the sport version, as it is intended, understand and appreciate the benefits offered. It disappears from the diver's awareness, until the second he needs it.

Do the Redundant (with 4 port gas block) and Umbilical system- offered unique advantages, for certain divers, in certain types of work environments? Yes.

Does every piece of diver gear work in every diving situation? Of course not.

That is why the industry offers equipment choices, with PonyPak now being one of them.

PonyPak is not in Sydney yet. We will be there soon enough. I have family in Sydney. My mother was born and raised in Kings Cross.... a long time ago.

Cheers!

William (Bill) Messner

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Dr. Lecter,

Please reread what I wrote, as opposed to your interpretation of what I wrote (or what others wrote). I never stated that PonyPak was "appropriate for use in a cave or wreck." Those are the wrongful speculations of others, who have never seen nor test dived any version of the design.

Funny, your own website says:

For sport divers who dive at greater depths or in "overhead" situations like wrecks and caves, the added air of a Front Mount 20 cft Pony is essential

There's also this gem:

Because most divers swim with their knees lower than their waist, there is no interference in tight overhead environments.

I see you still haven't figured out the issue with your device's suicide clips. Maybe you could google the name John Ormsby and get a clue?

 

[PonyPak]

Spd 135

Please see my responses to recent posts... to address some of your comments, about PonyPak's intended use.

Also, please accept the little bit of humor, I try to inject on occasion. Levity (like air) is good for sustaining life.

I do know the Razor, and divers who won't use it, because of its limitations - in their perception. The Razor may have its place. Clearly it does in your department. I am glad to hear it has been a successful addition for you in certain applications.

As far as "speed of entry" and "showing the family," - my training, and every PSD team I have work with, places the diver's own safety before everything else.

But there is always a judgment call - and I understand that.

The integrated valve is half the size of your DIN, is an environmentally sealed diaphragm, rated to military spec: 29 degrees salt and 34 deg fresh water.

PonyPak provides alternative solutions, for alternative situations, which each diver and or department selects for themselves.

Please see my comments above on "overhead" environments for "sport divers." For most, it is swimming into the open end of a box truck, sunk in a quarry.

I agree with you - a 30-40 cft tank is better.... which is precisely why PonyPak can perfectly sling a 30-40 cft tank, side mount - just as you prefer. It will work for those divers and diving situations that call for it. And the hose clipping arrangement is superior for diver's wearing thick gloves.

I really don't know what you "smell"....but that "ingredient" is not in our "recipe".

PonyPak provides a set of options and alternatives for those who are looking for them.

That is no different than any other dive equipment manufacturer.

I appreciate your comments. Thank you!

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
Home
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]

 

[diver 85]

Sport Shallow

It looks like the Ponypak is getting close to production. Would you use the Ponypak or a standard pony bottle?

What's the cost????...

 

[PonyPak]

Dr. Lecter.

I am sorry to learn your browser is linked to an ancient page (7 years ago) in our old website. Please clear your cache in your browser. Then with a fresh browser, go to Home

The background is solid Navy blue - with yellow fonts.

As with everything in life, we evolved through experience and training to better understand our own thoughts, and better communicate them to others.

I apologize for the miscommunications, and technical error. I will contact my ISP to be sure all old data is removed from their server.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

For everyone else, who is not arriving at the website described above.... please clear your browser cache. Thank you.


[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]


---------- Post added February 21st, 2015 at 01:55 PM ----------

Retailers should be able to offer the "street price" with first & second stage for the Sport Version...$499.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Clear my browser cache? You posted a link to that "ancient page" in the very first post in this thread. In any event, it clearly disproves your claim that you "never stated that PonyPak was 'appropriate for use in a cave or wreck.'" You did, now you're walking it back to 'it's only useful for fake overheads that are so small and pre-processed that neither a guideline nor a redundant air source is called for by the overhead itself.'

And still no discussion of the hazards posed by a self-clipping clip? You should have stuck to trying to sell FFM buddy breathing to the chronically overfunded and undereducated.

 

[Patoux01]

My continual hope is for people to read what I write, as opposed to other people's interpretations of what I write.

Okay, sorry I'm gonna be rude here. But seriously, are you full of ****?

What "penetration divers" learn, unexpectedly, his how far more simple it is with PonyPak to adjust its position to "squeeze" into unlikely places.
[...]

Take a few minutes at look at video #6. This deep wreck penetration dive is not only with PonyPak, but also with the umbilical surface supply system.

PonyPak is not for diving as depicted in your video. Removing it to get into a smaller space? Absolutely not. That is not the purpose of the design.

I never wanted that thing to go there, and at least you're honest about the fact it's not its purpose to get in smaller spaces, but then stop talking about squeezing through.

"Side mount" is not limited to cave/wreck penetration diving.

Some divers, those who have had back injuries, surgeries, or are older, or want to more easily get in/out of their gear in the water.... are now sport diving with side mount 40's (or larger). It is far more comfortable. Could PonyPak be useful for this type open water diving, for fun? Yes.

You may, or may not, have realised that my profile picture shows me diving in sidemount. I think a few people here know what they're talking about when it comes to sidemount, and to be honest I'm not sure you're one of them (not saying I am either).



Finally, I will conclude with the fact that I think you're targetting the wrong people here. Umbilical? not SCUBA (by definition). PSDs ? not basic scuba discussions either. So taking examples from "Oh but commercial divers use it" is irrelevant. If a scuba diver wants to know what is best for him, he should turn to the ones that actually use scuba. While commercial divers are great for us because they do decompression, they mainly don't use scuba. PSDs do, but do they have the same goals as a recreational diver? Not sure.

 

[PonyPak]

Dr. Lecter:

1) The first post was by "flyin01" whoever that is. It was not me.

2) I knew nothing of any of these posts until I looked on Scubaboard yesterday - for the first time in over a year.

3) yesterday, at 9:28 pm - is my first post on Scubaboard - ever.

As to the "use in a cave or wreck" I think most readers would have interpreted it, as intended: limited to my six posts on Scubaboard.

I apologize for not remembering a phrase I wrote on a website seven years ago. Surely there are phrases you stated in error in your past -and have forgotten.

To a sport diver still learning, a sunken box truck or artificial reef, is not a "fake" overheard. To them, it is real.

You do not know me. You have never seen an actual PonyPak - let alone test dived with one.

I do not understand the source of your apparent hostilities towards me, or PonyPak, nor why your accusations are delivered at so personal a level.

If you care to have cordial, intellectual conversation, I am happy to participate.

If you can't or won't temper your anger, I will decline.

Thank you.

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]

 

[diversteve]

Some questions:

Do you have to carry the adapter to fill it? Or can you use a standard 13-19" cu. ft. tank that can be filled anywhere without one? From the standpoint of traveling with it, it would be preferable to obtain a tank on-site rather than dealing with all the TSA regulations to fly with yours. What does it take to remove the "integrated valve" so you can fly with it? The picture isn't very large or clear.

There's no regulator hose on the rec version either right? The idea being to somehow hold the tank while breathing from it ala Spare Air correct? Or hand off the whole thing to a buddy.

How does it sit on a Jacket BC with front buoyancy? I'm thinking of something like an Aqualung Axiom or Scubapro Pilot where you've got part of the buoyancy tucked in behind the pockets? It seems like your tank would be pushed up higher onto the chest in that situation obstructing the view downward?

It seems like a more elegant version of the standard bungeed setup many people sling. I could see them selling to the right crowd. Probably not me though.