rcohn:
Conservatism isn’t really a matter for debate. It can be measured. Millions of dives are performed annually on computers. What is the accident rate? Does experience show that computer use is conservative or risky? The computer profile can be fed into the modeling software of your choice and the degree of conservatism can be measured. This will be limited by the model’s validity and the assumption that were made during its creation.
Exactly. Learn something about decompression and feed the computers profile into your decompresion software and see how it stacks up. Great idea. I wish I'd thought of it. LOL
Conservatism is also dependent on the divers choices, the margin he stays above the NDLs, the ascent rate, the use of deep stops (some of us have been using them for several years), the length of the safety stops, the exertion during and after the dive.
Good points. I don't at all disagree.
Rather than recommending technical mixed gas training (where many skills won’t be used) before recreational divers venture deeper,
That's not at all what I recomended. The classes/skills that I recommended are NOT technical classes. How many times do I need to repeat that before you get it.
perhaps there should be training in techniques such as deep stop(s) (1/2 max depth?), minimizing exertion, and emergency deco profiles. Skills a recreational diver could actually use.
Those are certainly some of the skills I was refering to. Deep stops are, IMO, a great idea. I'm not too crazy about the 1/2 max depth thing but it's a step in the right direction. Minimizing exertion comes from better technique. That's a major if not the major focus of the training I recommended as is planning centingency decompression schedules.
I’m sorry you friend was bent while using his computer within the limits. He is certainly not the first person to be bent while diving on a computer or tables. Are you suggesting no technical diver has ever been bent on a decompression schedule? As you know Dr. Deco would suggest that most sport divers are bent after they exit the water, are you certain the computer was at fault? Who do you blame if a technical diver on computer generated tables is bent?
Of course the computer wasn't at fault. The problem absolutely could have been somthing that happened after the dive like the climb up the stairs. However he didn't account for it and the computer didn't know he was going to do it.
Who do I blame? Nobody/nothing. My point is that there's more to it than just following a computer and hoping the computer knows best.
It’s no worse a plan, for a recreational diver, than a technical diver carrying a set of backup tables when he exceeds the original plan.
It is if the diver doesn't know why they chose that for a backup or what the other choices are.
If the technical diver is following his original plan he will never need the backup tables, it is only when he fails to follow his plan that these tables will be used.
Not true. We carry back up plans (or something like it) so we have some flexability in executing the dive. I may find a new tunnel and want to check it out or I may not want to decide certain specifics until I get there and see what conditions are. It's for flexability not failure.
Your real issue is you don’t believe in dive computers. You think that using a program, whose inner working you don’t understand, on a computer at home is “safe”. While carrying one or more computers on your dive, that continuously monitor the actual conditions of your dive, is unsafe.
This isn't true at all. The first reason that I don't use a computer because I don't need one. The second is that few if any computers incorporate a decompression model that I want to use. The dive computers on the market also don't give me the control that using pc software does.
Oh, and I think you should have a pretty solid understanding of whatever model you choose to dive.
The real question is what is the appropriate level of training and safety? How can we allow the greatest number of divers to safely participate in the sport of diving and enjoy the underwater world.
Why the requirement for large numbers and what does that have to do with regard to deciding what level of training is appropriate for a given level of diving?
IMO the accident statistics show the agencies do a surprisingly good job. There are many things I’d personally tighten up, starting with better swimming skills and actual basic freediving training prior to scuba. However, the statistics are generally good; it seems the current standards may be adequate in terms of water skills. Maybe they are adequate in terms of deep diving as well?
Yep, the statistics are generally good. Personally I dived for years before I ever took a class and never even had a close call. I'll bet most could do it.
I think recreational "deep" diving is one area that's really really weak. Check out
this it's a good recent example of what I'm talking about.
More training (the right training) would always be better and should be encouraged, but the recreational diver training should reflect the conditions, equipment, profiles, and minimum standards appropriate to recreational diving, rather than those of technical diving.
I agree and never said otherwise.
Ah Mike, you contempt for recreational divers and ignorance of the sites and conditions is showing.
No. Your misrepresentation or misunderstanding of my motivations is what's showing here because I have no contempt for recreational divers.
Many resort DMs have incredible skills.
ok
I’ve witnessed one rescue at Grand Turk while diving with Oasis divers. Not a deep dive more like around 40 ft. A teenage girl, diving with her father, was feeding one of the groupers with fish food pellets. Not encouraged by Oasis divers but not prohibited either. The fish managed to nip her finger and draw a few drops of blood. She spit out her regulator and attempted to bolt to the surface. Everything so far I learned from my wife, I was looking in the opposite direction at the time, the rest I saw. Austin the DM, reached her quickly before she could travel far, got his reserve regulator in her mouth, and settled her down until she was successfully able to continue the dive. She also did her first night dive late that day and did fine.
Maybe I’ve been fortunate (and careful) but I’ve yet to meet a tropical divemaster who was a joke.
Could have been much worse huh?
What’s my motivation? I get tired of the self-appointed biased experts who want to stand on a soapbox here and lecture everyone on what’s right and wrong in diving, and usually insisting that technical diving training, techniques, standards, and even objectives, are the only legitimate ways to dive. You are fond of forcefully expressing completely unsubstantiated opinions as though they were incontrovertible fact (e.g. the old frog kicking is the most efficient kicking post.). From your posts, you have no interest in recreational diving, and if I recall correctly, have never traveled to any of the popular dive destinations (I’m not counting Gilboa Quarry). Yet you leap at the chance to tell us your opinions on exactly what is wrong with recreation diving, how unsafe we all are, how incompetent all the DMs and instructors are, etc. Maybe if you want to be an authority on how recreational diving should be done, you might at least spend a week visiting a site like Grand Turk or on a liveaboard, to see what it is really all about.
Ralph
Well see here how backwards you have everything. Never did I claim to be an expert or suggest that any one do things my way. In fact all I did was suggest that they learn something about decompression before getting into it.
The only thing that I pointed to as "right" was being informed as aposed to "wrong" not being informed.
To say that I don't like recreational diving is obsurd since I do so much of it. It is true that I have lots of problems with issues in the industry but it isn't the same thing.
Are you saying that since I don't dive the Caribbean or whatever that I don't understand recreational diving? Give me a break.
It is true that I avoid certain diving situation especially when it costs me so much but that's precisely because of what I've seen not the other way around.
It's also true that I don't approve of much of the dive training that goes on. Sorry, if you don't like that you'll just have to put me on your ignore list or something. I outline specific reasons for it all the time and would be happy to do so here except it's a little off topic except as far as deep diving and decompression goes.
My teaching cridentials are stated on the board so how about you state yours and we'll get on with the business of discussing training techniques. ok?
And to return the sentement I get very tired of people like you who go off and tell divers they're all set and the computer will get them through deco and refer to my arguement that they should learn something about gas management and decompression first as unsubstantiated opinion.
