WORLD ’ s Youngest Master Scuba Diver

[Walter]

"my reasoning has been repeated at least twice."

Where? I've seen no reasoning from you at all.

 

[matt_unique]

As with any certification, the certification is only as good as the diver possesing it. All certifications demonstrate only a minumum level of competancy. To make my point with a joke...what do they call the person who graduates last in his class at medical school?........"Doctor". There are MSD's that really know their sh*t and their are MSD's who are idiots. The higher the certification the *less* likely the person is a bad diver. I have been diving with PADI instructors who I would not ask to join me on future dives because of a lack of skills. I have been diving with divers certified as DM's that were extremely skilled. Both assesments above are in my opinion and relative to my experience of course.

The MSD is something I am proud of and had as a goal for several years. With that being said, I was disappointed to learn you qualify for MSD with 50 dives. I think there should be a higher standard to minimize the number of idiots that can acquire the certification.

The MSD can be just a C card for a patch collector or it can represent a diver who has a lot of experience in many environments. It all depends on the person holding the card.

--Matt

 

[TCDiver1]

"my reasoning has been repeated at least twice."

Where? I've seen no reasoning from you at all.

Nor have i from you. Next?

 

[Uncle Pug]

Since I've been back, about a week max, I've already had 2 of my posts pulled and my PM to the new owner regarding access to the instructor forum is completely ignored

Your PADI number comes back as "inactive" and therefore you were not given access to the I2I forum. The instuctor forum is meant as a place for active instructors and DMs to discuss issues. If you have additional information regarding your active status as an instructor/DM or a mitigating circumstance then you are most welcome to PM that to any moderator for further consideration.

The fact that 2 of your posts were pulled is proof that you are not being ignored.

Normally this information would have been sent via PM but since the issue was raised in this thread I thought it best to give you your answer here as well.

BTW: folks, it does take time for us to process all of the various requests that we receive and this is especially the case regarding requests for access to the I2I forum where we need to check the credentials of those applying for inclusion.

 

[LowTide]

The MSD can be just a C card for a patch collector or it can represent a diver who has a lot of experience in many environments. It all depends on the person holding the card.
--Matt

I have to agree with you here. How can you judge someone from a news story? I have had dives with people I thought would make great buddies, only to find out things changed in the water. And on the other hand, I have been worried about diving with someone only to find out they handle themselves great under water.

 

[Walter]

My reasoning is PADI's MSD cert signifies nothing that isn't already shown more clearly by the 7 cards earned to qualify for the MSD, therefore it is a meaningless certification.

You got any?

 

[cornfed]

As with any certification, the certification is only as good as the diver possesing it. All certifications demonstrate only a minumum level of competancy.

This discussion has been about just how low that minimum level is.

To make my point with a joke...what do they call the person who graduates last in his class at medical school?........"Doctor".

There are MSD's that really know their sh*t and their are MSD's who are idiots.

And the minimum level for a doctor is pretty damn high so it's a useful title. The claim that MSD is not a useful title is based precisely on your statement that some are really good and some are really bad.

The higher the certification the *less* likely the person is a bad diver. I have been diving with PADI instructors who I would not ask to join me on future dives because of a lack of skills. I have been diving with divers certified as DM's that were extremely skilled.

I'm going to assume you put the emphasis in the wrong place because otherwise this statement isn't self consistant. An 'instructor' is a higher level of certification than 'DM' so you would expect the instructors to be better divers. The problem, as you pointed out, is that this isn't the case. If having a higher level of certification doesn't provide a reasonably strong assurance that someone is a better diver that someone at a lower level then you can't use certification levels as metric of diver ability. If they can't be used in this fashion, what point to they serve?

I think there should be a higher standard to minimize the number of idiots that can acquire the certification.

I tend to agree. However, our society is predicated on the fact that everyone is equal and everyone has the same chance of advancing to any given level, yet we have the unfortunate tendancy to confuse equal oppurtonity with ease of attainment.

The MSD can be just a C card for a patch collector or it can represent a diver who has a lot of experience in many environments. It all depends on the person holding the card.

That's the whole problem, Matt. What good is a certification that has such a broad meaning?!

 

[matt_unique]

This discussion has been about just how low that minimum level is.

>>The discussion has also been about MSD compared to other certifications. Other certifications by other agencies are just as meaningless, or as meaningful, as MSD. Totally depends on the diver.<<


And the minimum level for a doctor is pretty damn high so it's a useful title. The claim that MSD is not a useful title is based precisely on your statement that some are really good and some are really bad.

>>My point is MSD is as useful as any other title or certification.

I'm going to assume you put the emphasis in the wrong place because otherwise this statement isn't self consistant. An 'instructor' is a higher level of certification than 'DM' so you would expect the instructors to be better divers. The problem, as you pointed out, is that this isn't the case. If having a higher level of certification doesn't provide a reasonably strong assurance that someone is a better diver that someone at a lower level then you can't use certification levels as metric of diver ability. If they can't be used in this fashion, what point to they serve?

>>Unless I missed a typo I don't follow you here. My point was certification - in itself - means almost nothing. You can be OW certified and a much better diver than someone with a Rescue cert. The emphasis was on certification - higher does not mean better in itself. I think we're basically in agreement.

I tend to agree. However, our society is predicated on the fact that everyone is equal and everyone has the same chance of advancing to any given level, yet we have the unfortunate tendancy to confuse equal oppurtonity with ease of attainment.

>>OK

That's the whole problem, Matt. What good is a certification that has such a broad meaning?!

>>I agree it does not mean much because it depends on the diver, not just the certification. The MSD in itself represents a minimum level of competancy that is indeed broad. The entire thread is a debate about the usefulness of MSD. My point is about the nature of certification in itself. The PADI MSD can be as useful or as useless as any other certification depending on the diver. If I had to choose a buddy based solely on certification - I would go with a MSD over say a Rescue Diver. The chances of an MSD being a bad diver is less than that of a Rescue Diver for example.

--Matt

 

[fins wake]

Assume two people take the same classes from the same instructor at the same time. Let's assume that all of the classes are top rate. Let's also assume both do extremely well (equally well) in all classes - both academically and in water work. One opts to buy the MSD cert, the other decides to buy the instructor lunch with the money instead of buying the card. Both have the exact same training, experience and skills.
Do you see them differently with respect to diving ability because one has a MSD cert and the other doesn't?

Would anyone here do that, knowing all of the above? Guess not.

How about the newly qualified local dive guide in the Red Sea or Thailand, checking your credentials upon arrival? Knowing nothing about the standards of instructor A back home or what sort of diving conditions one has in, say, the Pacific Northwest? Or Denmark?

Would I react differently if I were travelling alone in the Red Sea or Thailand and ended up without a buddy on the dive boat, looking for one? And the diver I was giving my usual pre-dive third degree wasn't carrying his or her usual signed and numbered log book onboard but had the plastic card handy?

If diver 1 said "uh, I'm a Rescue Diver with 30 dives", diver 2 said "Ciao, I am a CMAS** with, uh, sixty or so dives I think" and the final person said "I'm a PADI MSD" and could explain which courses he'd taken ...

Which one do you think I'd go for for the first dive? Which one do you think the dive guide onboard would partner me with if I insisted on diving only with "an experienced buddy".

Subsequent dives would be based on performance in the first dive. Of course.

/Fins/

PS! Yeah, I know the CMAS* diver with 500 dives or PADI OW diver with 1132 logged and confirmed dives would be my first choice above. That's a different story, though. In this case, they're not onboard. DS.

 

[simbrooks]

I understand where all this conversation has come from and where it seems to be going, but just to back up a little. What is the real difference of the NAUI MSD?? According to them you need an AOW, >15yrs old and then you do 8+ dives including:
(From NAUI website)
"Required Dives
Emergency procedures and rescue
Deep/simulated decompression diving
Limited visibility or night diving
Underwater navigation
Search and recovery – light salvage
Elective Dives
Skin diving
Review of basic scuba skills
Environmental study or survey
Air consumption (practical application)
Boat diving
Shore diving
Hunting and collecting
Special interest"

Lets just say you got an "AOW" from some agency like SSI or SDI where you might have already done a deep, night, navagation and search and recovery set of dives, then you add on your rescue cert and make your dive count reach 50, you have pretty much covered most of what is required for the MSD in pretty much every agency surely?? I see the MSD from NAUI (according to their website description) as little more than another few dives in the style of their (or PADI) AOW - why call it MSD if its just "AOW-2"?? I would prefer to get a full cert on some of these courses than a little bit of knowledge on a bunch of them - not saying you get all the knowledge you might ever need from the speciality certs, but you should get more than from an intro-like course. Also (and Walter may be able to help here) i checked the www.ymcascuba.org site and couldnt find reference to MSD or something like beyond AOW and specialities and before DM and instructors - was i missing something?

This type of cert is a few dives and a few hundred bucks from where i am now, but i dont plan on going down the DM/instructor route, so i guess i will get an MSD from somewhere or at least a bunch of specialities to suit what i do and want to do.