wireless computers

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scubadiver53 I have a direct interest in scuba and I don't like to see some much bad information put out their. I hope to see you in the instructor forum real soon and you should correct your profile.

Two more things if you do lose signal for a minute why the panic? Two how often do you service your pressure gauges.
 
I now have 53 dives on my Suunto Air ( Sept-15-2009 aquired) and NEVER had a problem. It has been in cold water dives of the Pudget Sound, and all over Central America. I like to keep good track of my SAC rates and kept forgetting my pressures so I no longer have that problem. I also like the Suunto brand.
 
One argument that I see people make all the time against hoseless AI computers is that "you still need a backup in case it fails" or "if it fails you are so screwed." I don't get this logic at all. Why do you need a backup for a transmitter, but you don't need a backup SPG for your SPG? How is a transmitter failure on a hoseless AI computer any worse than a mechanical SPG failure?

Either way you no longer have a way to monitor your tank pressure. Either way you call the dive and ascend. If you don't have enough gas to make your ascent safely then you clearly weren't watching your tank pressure anyway, right?

Inevitably people answer that the transmitter is far more likely to fail. Is it really? Is that a fact or an assumption based on 'it's not mechanical' logic? Transmitters aren't mechanical, but they are solid state devices without moving parts. An SPG has moving parts and extra o-rings that can fail. Personally, I have experienced 2 mechanical SPG failures (both flooded and stopped giving correct info) during a dive and one transmitter failure (dead battery, but it told me it was low and I ignored it). I'm not claiming that transmitters are more reliable, but I would say that they are comparable in reliablity to a SPG.

If the features offered by hoseless AI computers are not worth the money to you then that's fine. Don't buy one. However, the idea that it is somehow less safe than a mechanical SPG is pretty lame.
 
All excellent points, Cleavitt. I've often wondered where these urban myths get started. I figure it goes way back to the very early days of dive computers and a natural resistance to change. Nobody wants to come across as pig-headed so it's easier to just vilify the new technology and dismiss it.

I remember going to my LDS back when Nitrox was just starting to get some attention. I asked the owner about it. I'll never forget his response : "Nitrox! You must be crazy. This dive shop will never, ever supply that Devil Gas." Yea. "Devil Gas." They actually called it "devil gas" for some bizarre reason. By the way, that dive shop is still around and pumps hundreds of tanks of Nitrox every week now.

I've asked repeatedly here and other places for any kind of data associated with computer and transmitter failures and all I get is "Well everyone KNOWS they're not as reliable" or "I knew this guy who was on a boat with this other guy and (insert catastrophic failure here) happened."

It comes down to this: There is no data to indicate that computers (wireless or otherwise) are inherently less reliable than a gauge.

-Charles
 
All excellent points, Cleavitt. I've often wondered where these urban myths get started. I figure it goes way back to the very early days of dive computers and a natural resistance to change. Nobody wants to come across as pig-headed so it's easier to just vilify the new technology and dismiss it.

I remember going to my LDS back when Nitrox was just starting to get some attention. I asked the owner about it. I'll never forget his response : "Nitrox! You must be crazy. This dive shop will never, ever supply that Devil Gas." Yea. "Devil Gas." They actually called it "devil gas" for some bizarre reason. By the way, that dive shop is still around and pumps hundreds of tanks of Nitrox every week now.

I've asked repeatedly here and other places for any kind of data associated with computer and transmitter failures and all I get is "Well everyone KNOWS they're not as reliable" or "I knew this guy who was on a boat with this other guy and (insert catastrophic failure here) happened."

It comes down to this: There is no data to indicate that computers (wireless or otherwise) are inherently less reliable than a gauge.

-Charles

Actually, that is not quite true. Each mfg or retailer does, but is very unlikely to share that information unless it was better that an SPG (which it isn't).

It would be easy to say, that electronics are obvious more reliable than a moving gauge, but you are comparing a fairly new technology versus a very mature one. And a more complex system to a fairly simple one.

With an SPG, one may get one with a quality issue, or a really cheap design that does not last, but all of the issues on how to make a reliable one have long ago been identified and corrected.

Since getting a wireless system, I've have two sets of transmitters and three computers replaced for design flaws. And I happen to know that there is at least one more design correction has been made from what I have.

During that same time frame, not one design flaw was identified in a SPG.

I suspect that within the next few years (hopefully), the technology will get to the point where the only issue is the quality of the build, but we are not quite there.

While most of the issues have been with the electronics, one of them was due to a physical design issue. All the original transmitters were made from a brass that was a different alloy than the brass used to make most first stages. Air got to the transducer via a tiny drilled hole, which if used in salt water for a lot of dives, would have galvanic corrosion plug the hole. Dive in fresh water, or only use the unit for a small number of dives (under a couple hundred) and one would never see the issue.

The problem was, once plugged, there was no way to clean it, as debris would be pushed into the sensor.

Today, that design has been replaced with a removable orifice, that can be cleaned.

Another design issue was a low reliability switch that would leave the sensor on once the pressure was removed.

I would guess, that if one buys one today, and does not dive a lot, they they are now getting somewhat close to a stable design, but if you have had one for any length of time, and used it a lot (say 500 to 1,000 dives), you will tend to be a bit nervous about just using that to monitor pressure.
 
My husband and I have hoseless computers with transmitters and after about 200 dives, they continue to work flawlessly. Yes, every once in awhile they'll lose the signal, but it has always come back in less than a minute, so no big deal. We enjoy having one less hose on our rigs and the convenience of having all of our information displayed in one place on our wrists.

To me it simply comes down to a personal decision of what you want. Tradition SPG, hosed AI, or hoseless AI. All are good choices IMO.
 
During that same time frame, not one design flaw was identified in a SPG.

Very well. And at the same time, there have been very, very few advancements in Buggy Whip design in the last 50 years.

You can't seriously compare a SPG with a wireless dive computer. The computer does everything the SPG does and dozens more functions. Of course it's more complicated. Nobody is arguing that point. I will argue with the position that they're "less reliable." More complicated != Less Reliable.

I put over 500 dives on an original Oceanic Pro Plus dive computer. And I'll admit, it had some design issues. They chose an expensive battery which only lasted about 6 months. The backlight function would really drain the battery, too. Outside of that, it worked just fine for 9 years. I only replaced it because the new computer had some additional functionality that I wanted.

Old timer car mechanics love to try this. "Computers! Bah! My old Ford pickup never had a computer and it was just as reliable as...." An isolated example, yes. Sampled over thousands of vehicles, no. Statistically cars today are far, far more reliable than they were 30 years ago. Computers and all.

Dive computers are here to stay. They're only getting better. I was one of the first divers in my group to switch over to a computer some 10 years ago. This past July trip to Cozumel all 11 of us had one. New divers are being trained on them right away. Continuing to push back against the technology is an exercise in futility.

-Charles
 
I have no issues with the electronics, but I do have issue with the transducer and remove it for some dives. It sticks up and makes it more difficult to work the valves and could get broken off in a cave, not that I make contact very often, but it happens. If the transducer could be mounted in series with the SPG or incorporated into an analog SPG, I would use it on all dives.
 
You can't seriously compare a SPG with a wireless dive computer. The computer does everything the SPG does and dozens more functions. Of course it's more complicated. Nobody is arguing that point. I will argue with the position that they're "less reliable." More complicated != Less Reliable.

-Charles

The subject was an SPG versus wireless transmitter, not SPG versus computer. Cars are more reliable because electronic technology of today, for the most part, was a item by item replacement, but even that was not without transition issues.

But reliability and ease of repair are very different things. I think those two issues get confused by some people. A distributor cap and rotor was very easy to replace compared to any modern auto, but it was not very reliable.

A good example of reliability would be using a Laser versus a finger for pointing. During the time that I have had 8 laser pointers break, my finger still works. However, the laser does a lot more, over a greater distance and is really cool. I will still use one, but would not argue they are more reliable.

Your oceanic computer was not a wireless system (I still have one, love the display). Mine has outlived 5 wireless systems that all had reliability issues.

My first transmitters would indicate low battery, and then work for around 5 more dives, and they never made it a year of diving for me. Not something one would want to use on an extended dive vacation. The ones I have today, I just replace the battery every year, and have not had an issue. They obviously solved that reliability issue.

I've had wireless computers almost as long as you had your integrated computer, so I obviously don't have an issue with new technology.

My current Galileo, I am now on the third battery for it, with 200 dives on it in the last 17 months. Problem with that is that it's battery is very difficult to even get. Don't use the compass, or the light. It has been reliable, but if the battery dies on a trip, one will not be able to get a battery locally...

Note: I thought there was something wrong with my computer for going thru batteries, but the type of diving I do (almost twice the average duration per dive) and how those dives are done, results in the computer running almost 5 times longer that they had calculated "normal usage" would be.
 
After the last comments I made in April (about wether ONLY spg was acceptable aboard live-aboards) some further comments: on the trip in Saudi Arabia in April this year there was no problem to have only a hoseless computer. I have bought a (second hand) GALILEO SOL with transmitter and did not experience any loss of transmission. ( Previously with my Air-Z Nitrox and the Air-Z O2 there was an occasional loss of signal; frequent loss of signal might of course be a sign of battery exhaustion.)
In the Galileo, there is a monitor both for the hand-unit battery and for the transmitter battery. Batteries are user-replaceable, so I just carry spares with me. (Easy to get through Internet, not so easily in local diveshops).
As I'm a quarter paranoia, I also take my old Air-Z O2 as a backup while going down.
Galileo also offers buddy tank monitoring if a second transmitter is attached to the buddy tank.
So far I'm very happy with it (although the graphics page for showing dive sites or pictures is very low resolution and not really a great feature).
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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