Why the Prejudice about DIR or GUE

[PerroneFord]

Have you LOOKED at the price for those split fins? It's like getting 2 fins for the price of 8.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

there are a few jerks

mercifully, they are few

real DIR divers don't have **** to prove, they're that good (just for the record, i don't consider myself a DIR diver)




this was discussed earlier

why don't people get riled when PADI says it's "the way people learn to dive?"

does that imply that if you're not PADI you don't really know how to dive?

of course not, it's just a slogan

just like DIR is just a name ...

people are too insecure, i think

There is one difference that I can see: "Doing it Right" implies that others are not doing it right. PADI just claims to be a way people learn to dive. If it was "the only way people learn to dive" then it would be more of a problem, something people would find fault with. If it went further to claim "the only way people learn to dive right", then PADI would be claiming that other institutions don't train people right.

Of course, I have friends that look down on me for learning withPADI, because they were NAUI trained. I find that to be just as bad as people bashing because others are or aren't doing it right.

Maybe a better name for DIR would be DIB, (doing it better) or DID (doing it different) One other exmaple of an "extreme" setup is Hogarthian, and the term Hogarthian makes no claims about being right or wrong.

 

[H2Andy]

PADI just claims to be a way people learn to dive.

nope...

the slogan is "the way the world learns to dive"

"the way" implies there is no other.

if "Doing it Right" is offensive, then you should take offense with PADI.

grammatically, "Do it RIght" is not an exclusive statement. "The only way to Do it Right" would be.

 

[Bigcape]

nope...

the slogan is "the way the world learns to dive"

"the way" implies there is no other.

if "Doing it Right" is offensive, then you should take offense with PADI

Every body want's to be the ONE or the BEST. Isnt that the reason we are still at war in the middle east, have soda pop and beer commercials?

Oh! and the reason we have 318 posts in this thread alone.


BTW: What is the difference between HOGARTHIAN and DIR?

 

[JahJahwarrior]

nope...

the slogan is "the way the world learns to dive"

"the way" implies there is no other.

if "Doing it Right" is offensive, then you should take offense with PADI.

common sense would dictate that "Doing it RIght" is not the only way to do it right, just one of many.

Ah, you do have a point. I disagree on the intensity of PADI's claim though. I would take offense for sure if they said "the ONLY way" or "the way people learn to dive RIGHT"

I don't take that much offense at DIR. I don't think it's right for them to look down upon normal divers of any type. I think that most DIRers don't, but that a few do, and make alot of racket insulting those who are not DIR, and that ruins DIRs reputation.

 

[Thalassamania]

I could go with 40" primary instead of a long hose, but I firmly believe that donating the primary in the mouth …

no argument there, this is a conclusion that our instructional staff reached in 1982 and that our Diving Control Board concurred with.

and going to a bungee'd backup is better.

here’s where you get disagreement. There are advantages to the bungee'd backup concept, not the least of which is the ability to switch to it when your hands are otherwise occupied. But it has two problems that give me pause. The first is that it breaks one of the Prime Directives of the scientific diving world, and that is relying on an auxiliary attachment (e.g. the bungee) to locate something that you’d need in an emergency. That’s just the sort of thing that won’t be there when you need it. Then, since you’ve not practiced and drilled the one sure fire, guaranteed, can’t fail way to recover your auxiliary (reach back, grab the intermediate hose where it attaches to the first stage, encircle the hose, shove your arm out to full extension and voila, the second stage is in your hand) your gonna die, just like the poor stroke (dare I say stroke in this context?) that was last seen repeatedly doing arm sweeps without success.

And my strong belief is driven more by a fatal accident that I was involved in than a desire to spread religion. OOAs are the important skill underwater that you want to most highly tune your gear towards. In other cases, I was trying for a little over-the-top, here I'm a little bit serious. I'm also certain that it's never going to happen, but at least I'm free to whine about it.

I could not agree more, that’s the only reason I push you on this one, I know that OOAs are the the most important skill and that they must be thought out and practiced. Which brings me to the second issue. Once I’ve saved the life of the victim by surrendering my long-hosed first stage, then I have to save my own. This is the critical second half of the skill. I really don’t want to be in the position (or have someone else be in the position) of pushing a dogma on someone in such a critical circumstance. I’d rather show them all the alternatives, go over the pro an con of each solution, show them the actual gear and give them a chance to try it, and during this process reinforce the idea that it should be practiced at the start of every dive, with every buddy. Sure, this takes an entire lecture and pool session, but I think that its time well spent. I see this as teaching critical path analysis, much as we do with deep submersible systems, rather than just teaching diving or how to handle an OOA. The student goes away with a body of knowledge that, I hope, has a lasting effect on their SA.

Again, I helped to rescue a guy 2 years ago who was working himself into a panic because he couldn't breathe due to overinflating his jacket BC that was too small for his waist. I know that done properly you can dive in a jacket BC. I would, however, like to see the world reversed so that back-inflates were more popular than jacket BCs and that newbie divers who didn't know what they were doing would be diving Zeagles.

This is no different than the common overweighting and other carelessness that so seems to permeate much of the industry. I dive a jacket BC some of the time, it inflates away from me and fits me properly, and I rarely put any air in it. The BC is just a way to hold my tank to my back and meet another standards requirement. I frankly have little or no use for a BC until the weight of the gas consumed on a dive moves beyond the buoyancy I’m comfortable shifting with my breathing center-point or when I dive a wet suit deep.

Frankly I think that the DIR discussion is thought provoking and I’m glad to see a place where this discussion can be controlled when needed. It’s not like there isn’t plenty of space on the board to discuss anything that you want (except politics<G>).

 

[JahJahwarrior]

BTW: What is the difference between HOGARTHIAN and DIR?

I don't know exactly differences, but I have looked a little at both becuase I thought they might be the same. Both seem to have something of a similar attitude as far as carrying anything unnecessary. DIR I think focuses alot on teamwork also, which I think is awesome. Both people in one team are very responsible for paying attention and looking out for each other. Ask me my buddies pressure, I'll guess. Ask a DIR diver his buddies pressure, he'll not only know the exact answer, he'll know it better thanhis own

 

[H2Andy]

BTW: What is the difference between HOGARTHIAN and DIR?

oh, oh... here's some kerosene... here's some matches



well... hogarthian is a method, DIR is an application of that method?

DIR is hogarthian, with a more cohesive set of requirements

basically, WIlliam HOgarth Main developed a holistic cave diving system stressing minimalism and functionality.

DIR took that and created a set of "rules" for divers to dive as a team during the Wakulla Project (i don't think it was called DIR then)

then Jarrod Jablonski took that "team diving" set of rules and published them as Doing it Right under Global Underwater Explorers (GUE)

GUE runs the DIR-Fundamentals class which is the first step in DIR diving

 

[The Horn]

common sense would dictate that "Doing it RIght" is not the only way to do it right, just one of many.

There is nothing that stipulates "Common Sense" being used anywhere in this thread

 

[Thalassamania]

I could go with 40" primary instead of a long hose, but I firmly believe that donating the primary in the mouth …

no argument there, this is a conclusion that our instructional staff reached in 1982 and that our Diving Control Board concurred with.

and going to a bungee'd backup is better.

here’s where you get disagreement. There are advantages to the bungee'd backup concept, not the least of which is the ability to switch to it when your hands are otherwise occupied. But it has two problems that give me pause. The first is that it breaks one of the Prime Directives of the scientific diving world, and that is relying on an auxiliary attachment (e.g. the bungee) to locate something that you’d need in an emergency. That’s just the sort of thing that won’t be there when you need it. Then, since you’ve not practiced and drilled the one sure fire, guaranteed, can’t fail way to recover your auxiliary (reach back, grab the intermediate hose where it attaches to the first stage, encircle the hose, shove your arm out to full extension and voila, the second stage is in your hand) your gonna die, just like the poor stroke (dare I say stroke in this context?) that was last seen repeatedly doing arm sweeps without success.

And my strong belief is driven more by a fatal accident that I was involved in than a desire to spread religion. OOAs are the important skill underwater that you want to most highly tune your gear towards. In other cases, I was trying for a little over-the-top, here I'm a little bit serious. I'm also certain that it's never going to happen, but at least I'm free to whine about it.

I could not agree more, that’s the only reason I push you on this one, I know that OOAs are the the most important skill and that they must be thought out and practiced. Which brings me to the second issue. Once I’ve saved the life of the victim by surrendering my long-hosed first stage, then I have to save my own. This is the critical second half of the skill. I really don’t want to be in the position (or have someone else be in the position) of pushing a dogma on someone in such a critical circumstance. I’d rather show them all the alternatives, go over the pro and con of each solution, show them the actual gear and give them a chance to try it, and during this process reinforce the idea that it should be practiced at the start of every dive, with every buddy. Sure, this takes an entire lecture and pool session, but I think that its time well spent. I see this as teaching Critical Path Failure Analysis, much as we do with deep submersible systems, rather than just teaching diving or how to handle an OOA. The student goes away with a body of knowledge that, I hope, has a lasting effect on their SA.

Again, I helped to rescue a guy 2 years ago who was working himself into a panic because he couldn't breathe due to overinflating his jacket BC that was too small for his waist. I know that done properly you can dive in a jacket BC. I would, however, like to see the world reversed so that back-inflates were more popular than jacket BCs and that newbie divers who didn't know what they were doing would be diving Zeagles.

This is no different than the common overweighting and other carelessness that so seems to permeate much of the industry. I dive a jacket BC some of the time, it inflates away from me and fits me properly, and I rarely put any air in it. The BC is just a way to hold my tank to my back and meet another standards requirement. I frankly have little or no use for a BC until the weight of the gas consumed on a dive moves beyond the buoyancy I’m comfortable shifting with my breathing center-point or when I dive a wet suit deep.

Frankly I think that the DIR discussion is thought provoking and I’m glad to see a place where this discussion can be controlled when needed. It’s not like there isn’t plenty of space on the board to discuss anything that you want (except politics<G>).