Why the dislike of air integrated computers?

[dmaziuk]

So your plan is, if you buddy has a gas emergency, your buddy will CESA from 70ft instead of asking you, who might be just 10 ft away, for gas. Is that right?

Yes. And then he gets bent and never dives again and I get a better buddy next time. Happy now?

---------- Post added July 23rd, 2015 at 04:57 PM ----------

Actually, the *original* topic of this thread is, why do people dislike air integrated computers.

True. So I believe they shouldn't.

 

[Adobo]

Yes. And then he gets bent and never dives again and I get a better buddy next time. Happy now?

I'd be happy with a thought out response as to why gas planning shouldn't include out of gas emergencies. But I suppose if that's the best you can do, I'll just have to live with the disappointment.

 

[eelnoraa]

I think at this point, the fundamental believe is so different, there is no point of having a discussion anymore. I just have to agree to disagree.

A while ago, I heard a story about a member on this board, he ran into two divers (both OW instructors, but obvious knew nothing about gas management) at 120ft with OOA emergency. Heroically, he gave up his rig to these two divers at 120ft, so that they both had something to breath on. Himself did a CESA from 120 to 70ft, where he had the next gas supply waiting for him.

There are always those plan with conservative margin, and there are those who live on the edge. This instance, the later get to live because of former's conservatism and selfless behavior. Just a story to share

 

[DaleC]

Do you drive an abrams tank in case you get hit by a jackknifing semi one day or do you drive a prius in case you have to pay for the gas every day?

That's an interesting statement that sort of reflects my feelings about AI.

When I was car shopping a Prius was about $25,000 more than the small car I eventually purchased. I don't think I would have ever saved that amount in gas over the lifetime of the car, especially when adding more expensive repairs and maintenance.

Likewise, I can buy a quality SPG for <$100 and do the same dives that someone does with AI. If you enjoy the purchase go ahead, I buy vintage fins myself, but you are not gaining any real advantage over me.

 

[abscuba]

AI sounds great on the surface, but for tech diving it is a failure point that provides no benefit to me other then saving me 2 seconds to look at my gauge. Plus I generally have multiple tanks with multiples gases meaning I have several pressures to keep track of. The dive starts with a bubble check so I can see leaks that means no gas is changing that fast. I have enough time to know how fast I will burn down gas and I with a regular sweep I know right where I am at. I do agree the tech side pushes alot on the recreational side for things that dont affect them. For recreational diving I dont see an issue if you have a back up spg, but I have had to give bottles (yes entire tanks) to recreational divers while I am on a deco stop because they have run out of gas simply because their transmitter didn't work and they had no back up SPG. AI isnt evil but as every digital system needs a back up for when things go wrong.

 

[The Chairman]

I'd be happy with a thought out response as to why gas planning shouldn't include out of gas emergencies.

Realistically, people who simply run out of gas also have poor buddy skills. Both are a function of a diver's situational awareness so the diver who is likely to be OOA (Out Of Air) is also likely to be OOB (Out Of Buddy) and so becomes SOL. It's partly a matter of training but it's more a matter of actually caring about the situation before it reveals itself. No math is needed for most recreational dives, but no amount of math will help you if you simply don't check your SPG, be it digital or analog.

 

[Adobo]

Realistically, people who simply run out of gas also have poor buddy skills. Both are a function of a diver's situational awareness so the diver who is likely to be OOA (Out Of Air) is also likely to be OOB (Out Of Buddy) and so becomes SOL. It's partly a matter of training but it's more a matter of actually caring about the situation before it reveals itself. No math is needed for most recreational dives, but no amount of math will help you if you simply don't check your SPG, be it digital or analog.

Whereas I see thinking about how much gas reserves you need to maintain and checking your pressure at regular intervals is part of what defines a good buddy.

Now, I am not saying he has to go through the math before each and every dive. All I am saying is that he should at least have done the math at some point in his life and remember the amount of minimum gas he should set aside for every dive.

If he doesn't know that number (and the assumptions behind that number) because he doesn't remember or he has never done the math, then how can he/she possibly be a good buddy during the dive? To me, its not all that different than making sure that the octo you plan to hand me in the case of an OOG emergency works. I mean, sure, I could always CESA but that doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

I can appreciate that some people don't care about the math, they make up some random number or trust that their computer makes sense. But in my book, such a buddy is already not a good one even before the dive starts.

 

[dmaziuk]

I'd be happy with a thought out response as to why gas planning shouldn't include out of gas emergencies. But I suppose if that's the best you can do, I'll just have to live with the disappointment.

I can think of several things but basically what NetDoc said: my gas planning does not include you not looking at your spg. My "if fecal matter hits the air displacement device" plan includes knowing I can swim 70' up without breathing.


This was triggered by "ATR bad because if your DC says you have X minutes left and you suddenly need to share air and now your DC lied to you". Yes, we know how sharing works: you had X of something, you shared it, now you have less. What's that got to do with AI DC? Then we somehow got to "but if you have an emergency would you CESA?" -- I kinda think that's what the "E" is for so duh.

---------- Post added July 24th, 2015 at 01:21 PM ----------

such a buddy is already not a good one even before the dive starts.

As I said: I'll get a better buddy next time.

 

[Patoux01]

I can think of several things but basically what NetDoc said: my gas planning does not include you not looking at your spg. My "if fecal matter hits the air displacement device" plan includes knowing I can swim 70' up without breathing.

THere's other reasons to get out of air than not looking at your spg, and you have to be a complete moron to not plan for those. They happen on technical diving as well, see here Nylon-Braided Regulator Hose Diving Emergency

 

[dmaziuk]

That's an interesting statement that sort of reflects my feelings about AI. When I was car shopping a Prius was about $25,000 more than the small car I eventually purchased. I don't think I would have ever saved that amount in gas over the lifetime of the car, especially when adding more expensive repairs and maintenance.

Yep: I'd love to see my AC on the dive profile plot but I don't see how it can be worth the thousand bucks when I can spend that money on actual dives and learn as much.