Why the dislike of air integrated computers?

[Kevrumbo]

For an AL80/11L per bar Cylinder, my Surface Consumption Rate (SCR) in pressure units is 2 bar/min (a nominal SCR that's acheivable for most recreational divers). Therefore my Depth Consumption Rate (DCR) is 2 bar/min multiplied by the depth I'm at in Atmospheres Absolute (ATA).

So if I'm at 30m depth -which is 4 ATA- then I know I'm consuming a DCR of 8 bar/min. After 10 min at that depth, I already know that my SPG will show a delta 80 bar down of air consumed.

Point is that you really don't need an Air Integrated (AI) Computer Function to monitor an arithmetic method as easily & intuitively applied as above. . .

I find this reliance on mathematics while you are narced to be extremely foolhardy and dangerous. A simple error, which is much easier at that depth, and you run the risk of running out of air. Even worse, a little elevated breathing due to excitement or fear and the numbers go way, way off. Whatever your method of determining tank pressure, please check it often. Not every few seconds, but often enough that you don't run out. While you're at it check your buddy's pressure as well. This is more important the deeper you go. There's no reason to run out of air with today's gear.

Pete, the fundamental principle here in this sub-forum (this is Advanced Scuba discussions), is that an analog SPG, or an AI feature if you really need one, should confirm what you already know your actual real-time gas consumption to be. This "reliance on mathematics" skill comes along & develops with repetition and practice, just like learning & being familiar with any process or procedure in general.

So in the example above, if narcosis is a problem -simply come shallower, read a new reference pressure off your SPG, elapsed time and new depth from your computer, and figure what your new DCR will be. Check your SPG (or AI) five or ten minutes later, and it should confirm the expected air consumption/remaining tank pressure value you've just calculated.

If you're still feeling narced, or your pressure gauge reads 30% or greater consumption than expected for a particular depth & time interval, then that indicates either a major leak or hard physical exertion/heavy breathing & increased gas consumption -and you should obviously abort the dive.

 

[kr2y5]

the thread is "Why the dislike of air integrated computers?"... so people voice why they dislike air integrated computers...

I think the OP has noticed a general anti-A.I. sentiment in many threads, and likewise, most of us have replied based on a similar general impression. Few people have the genuine need for luxury cars, or for ice cream, and one can probably convincingly argue that either is objectively bad for you, your finances or your health. And yet, probably nobody expects to see a hot "anti-ice-cream" debate, in which both sides are trying to frantically rationalize one vs. the other, citing the numbers about the increased risk of diabetes or heart disease vs. mocking diet as an archaic practice akin to some sort of mental self-flagellation, deeply rooted in a bad childhood experience.

 

[phoenix31tt]

But I'm pretty sure you would find some home made vs factory made debates citing the same benefit of one versus the other... But I don't frequent the ice cream forums...

I can understand why the op posted... And he got his answer... WHY the dislike... This isn't a... AI vs Non-AI thread... It's a reasons for not liking it thread... Doesn't matter the reason


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[RJP]

As with most technology, until it is really mainstream the cost hard to justify for the majority of consumers.

But let's not confuse "mainstream" with "used by the majority" here. Something - like AI computers - can become "mainstream" without being used the majority of people or ever replacing. Take hybrid cars, for instance. They are clearly part of the mainstream these days... but their number represents a tiny sliver of all vehicles on the road. (~3% in 2013(

 

[phoenix31tt]

well maybe not the majority but popular, trending what have you... If it's not used by a large percentage of the overall users... It's not mainstream...

Hybrid cars are no where close to being mainstream... It's not NEW but it isn't mainstream either


Edit:

[h=2]Definition of MAINSTREAM[/h]: a prevailing current or direction of activity or influence

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[RJP]

well maybe not the majority but popular, trending what have you... If it's not used by a large percentage of the overall users... It's not mainstream...

Then Subarus, BMW's, VWs, Audis, and Mazdas, are not "mainstream" I suppose, as they each have a lower overall share of the automotive market than hybrids. What about Nissan or Hyundai? With less than a 10% market share, even Hondas are not driven by "a large percentage" of overall motorists.

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, the fundamental principle here in this sub-forum (this is Advanced Scuba discussions), is that an analog SPG, or an AI feature if you really need one, should confirm what you already know your actual real-time gas consumption to be.

What an assumption! In checking the forum description, I don't read your 'fundamental principle' anywhere in it. What you're suggesting is nothing short of a 'trust me' dive, even though it's yourself that you're trusting in. Not the best idea when you're narced.

This "reliance on mathematics" skill comes along & develops with repetition and practice, just like learning & being familiar with any process or procedure in general.

Like any cognitive based process it's prone to simple errors even on the surface that are exacerbated geometrically with depth. It's not a matter of 'if' but 'when' someone makes a simple mistake that causes them harm. To date, I've never seen an SPG or a PDC get narced. When they fail, it's usually pretty dramatic and obvious.

So in the example above, if narcosis is a problem -simply come shallower,

The biggest problem with narcosis is that the affected don't necessarily know when they are being affected. You're relying on feelings and feelings are a poor indicator of impairment. It's not just a drunken feeling, but the process of become an idiot savant. The deeper you go, the more of an idiot you become. Now answer this truthfully: how many idiots really understand the depth of their stupidity? It's all about denial, n'est pas?

 

[phoenix31tt]

Then BMW's are not "mainstream" I suppose, as they have a lower overall share of the automotive market than hybrids.

no they aren't... but you can say they are mainstream LUXURY vehicles, whereas a maybach isn't...

but luxury cars are not mainstream vehicles... toyotas and nissans and fords etc are...

---------- Post added July 4th, 2015 at 05:03 PM ----------

Like any cognitive based process it's prone to simple errors even on the surface that are exacerbated geometrically with depth. It's not a matter of 'if' but 'when' someone makes a simple mistake that causes them harm. To date, I've never seen an SPG or a PDC get narced. When they fail, it's usually pretty dramatic and obvious.

The biggest problem with narcosis is that the affected don't necessarily know when they are being affected. You're relying on feelings and feelings are a poor indicator of impairment. It's not just a drunken feeling, but the process of become an idiot savant. The deeper you go, the more of an idiot you become. Now answer this truthfully: how many idiots really understand the depth of their stupidity? It's all about denial, n'est pas?

a computer cannot get narc'd but a narc'd person can not check their computer either. Doesn't matter how much gear you have... if you're narc'd you can do dumb crap... I think more the point he was trying to make is that every good diver should have an idea of where his air is supposed to be at @ every moment in a dive and checking a computer is just for verification.

If you're narc'd you could have that estimate all wrong but at the same time if you're narc'd you can neglect to check the computer to confirm your wrong estimate either way...

 

[The Chairman]

But let's not confuse "mainstream" with "used by the majority" here.

It's about trends. Ten years ago, the biggest reason not to use a PDC was their relative scarcity especially in distant dive destinations. Were they 'mainstream' back then? Of course as they weren't a novelty. Novelty is really the antithesis of mainstream. I don't think that anyone can suggest that hoseless AI is a novelty anymore.

 

[phoenix31tt]

It's about trends. Ten years ago, the biggest reason not to use a PDC was their relative scarcity especially in distant dive destinations. Were they 'mainstream' back then? Of course as they weren't a novelty. Novelty is really the antithesis of mainstream. I don't think that anyone can suggest that hoseless AI is a novelty anymore.

novelty has nothing to do with being mainstream though... novelty is just about newness... something can never reach mainstream and not be a novelty... case in point... rebreathers... been around for quite awhile... definitely no novelty there... but not mainstream by a longshot...