Why new divers looking into instructor and tech diving

[DevonDiver]

I respectfully disagree with this. Sure OW students don't absolutely need this skill to keep them safe, but there are more to protect then the divers themselves underwater. Bad finning techniques and no buoyancy control I observed in my dive trips, broke corals, disturbed sea creatures, kicked up silt in lava tube passage .... If we keep this up, the quality of underwater world will degrade.

I think you misunderstand. Good buoyancy is critical - that is why it is taught on every entry-level program. Of course, we can debate all day how well it is taught...

Specific techniques like frog-kick and helicopter turns aren't the be-all and end-all of good buoyancy. A diver can 'swim in a circle' without needing to helicopter turn on the spot. That technique has specific usage (confined areas).

Lets end this assumption that 'everything non-fundies is bad'... or that 'fundies is the only solution to bad diver buoyancy'.

The issue lies with quality of training and adherence to required performance standards - regardless of agency.

As you go on to say... good training is the product of good instructors. Technical qualified instructors are more likely to have a high standard of skills, more experience of instruction provision, more attention to detail and, generally, a higher level of expectation from students. The fact is that all GUE instructors are technical qualified, wheras all recreational agency instructors are not.

As for fail/pass, I do agree it to a point. Fundie isn't a walk in the park kind of class like PADI AOW. It requires student to work hard and commit, and failing is not too impossible. If you ask "I am only diving OW, why do I need those skill, why do I want to pay so much for another recreation level class? .... " then you are not likely to take fundie.

I think the fact is... only a tiny minority of diving students are willing to accept a pass/fail course criteria - when other, more guaranteed, alternatives exist. They pay their money, they want their card afterwards...

It's short-sighted, but reflective of human nature.

The benefit of being a small-scale, specialist, agency is that you can cater for a minority. A larger agency would bankrupt if it tried that. To effect change, on a major industry-wide basis, there'd have to be a unilateral shift to more exacting performance standards... with no option for 'an easy ride' being available elsewhere.

 

[lowviz]

eelnorra, I think that I am getting this, I now have a clear view of the diving instruction world.

GUE, followed by the mostly unworthy UTD, a tech agency or two, then all of the pablum agencies at the bottom of the barrel.

And DaleC. He just doesn't seem to fit in anywhere...

 

[Gombessa]

"Fundies is a class that can make a 20 dive diver LOOK like a 100 dive diver...."

Funny, I always thought of it as a class that can make a 100 dive diver look like a 20 dive diver

 

[NAM001]

This says it all

Because, quite simply, for open water divers in recreational depths, most of those skills aren't important. OW Divers don't need to use long hose, or helicopter turn, or use light communications. They might choose to do so, if future plans included cave/wreck/tech diving - and if so, appropriate supplemental training exists for them...

The issue of task-loading...and consequent detriment to core skills performance is (IMHO) a matter of experience. Whenever significant demand is placed upon a diver, other -recently acquired, but not fully ingrained - skills will be damaged.

The process of ingraining skills comes with experience. No course, from no agency, enables ingrained skills. Fundies puts an emphasis on core skills... the diver then knows to focus on them. Quite often, that focus comes before the training starts, in preparation... The benefit is in the focus on skills, not some 'wonder training' to develop them.

---------- Post Merged at 04:47 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:20 PM ----------

I respectfully disagree with this. Sure OW students don't absolutely need this skill to keep them safe, but there are more to protect then the divers themselves underwater. Bad finning techniques and no buoyancy control I observed in my dive trips, broke corals, disturbed sea creatures, kicked up silt in lava tube passage .... If we keep this up, the quality of underwater world will degrade.

have you given any thought that perhaps the ow level of skills may not be designed to qualify you to dive in such environments????



I think the magic of fundie or equivalent type of class (so not just GUE) is the general high competency of the instructors. At least mine have abolutely amazing underwater skill. On top of that, they also have the ability to transfer knowledge, ability to see even the smallest mistakes student make, and request for a correction. Even those it means more work for them.

This is NOT to say other agency's instructors are not competent. I am sure lots of other agency's instructors are just as competent. However, the common demoninator is low. Out of the class, the students can only be as good as the instructors.

the role of fundies and the like are not to train you to do a safety stop, explain bouyancy, demonstrate giant stride, or motivate you to perfection. that is for ow courses. first grade arithmatic does not teach you algebra. without ow/aow it has no purpose in life. it is a course that for the few percent of the aow's who are self motivated and that have decided to take thier "how to keep living skills" and enhance those fundementals that are core skills for all further training. In short you want to deve deep, in overhead conditions, any situation that a buddy is absolutely necessary, OW does not teach it, AOW does not teach it. They skim over it, and you are suposed to via experience enhance your skills is those areas. Ow limitations is the backup for the buddy. In OW you do not need the buddy for survival. Not so true in other diving environments.

As for fail/pass, I do agree it to a point. Fundie isn't a walk in the park kind of class like PADI AOW. It requires student to work hard and commit, and failing is not too impossible. If you ask "I am only diving OW, why do I need those skill, why do I want to pay so much for another recreation level class? .... " then you are not likely to take fundie.

Fundies should not be a walk in the park. if you take 10 students at 250 a ppiece and issue tem a card as they walk in, the inst gets 2500. Now you get an inst that has the goals of making divers with great core skills. He can not do 10 students and give the attention required to achieve the training goals. hence smaller classes and higher costs. you look for a buddy and you wave your ow card or the fundies card tell me which one says more about your abilities. As far as the coral goes i am surprised that they allow ows near them at all.

 

[CT-Rich]

Everything depends upon the quality of the dives that lead up to it. Although David Shaw did die on his last dive, he was at about 900 feet doing a dive few people on the planet could even contemplate. He was a very celebrated cave diver then, and I believe his last dive was number 336. (If I am wrong, I am not far off.)

Ahhh, he is dead? Right? Okay he set a record. he walked away from it alive. That can count as skill or luck. To the outside observer, there is no difference. The fact that he did a fatal dive shows that there was on some level an error made. He takes responcibility for his error and he will remain dead.

As an instructor, your level of instruction will impact divers long after you are gone. 100 dives in the NE US is a good number of dives in what are frequently less than pristine conditions. you will run into some adversity that will improve your skills and your situational awareness. As a DM, or instructor you will need to have a situational awareness of the students in your group, and not all of them will exhibit fear/panic or anxiety the same way. A LOT of logged dives, even easy one are important for being the grown up in the group. A blown o-ring or inverted piece of gear will happen, so will a tank valve that was not opened or some one getting tangled in a float line or getting their reg kicked out of their mouth. If you are leading five other divers, logically these things are five times more likely to happen than as a regular rec diver.

If you want to be a good diver, train for the dives you want to do. Some people love to learn, more power to you! A cave course will make you a better diver. A cave course will not make you a good cave diver. Experience will. once you've done the course you will hopefully be the apprentice, with a master to learn from. Experience makes you the master.

DM or instructor, unlike other certs implies that you are the master. and can be trusted and followed. You might remember what happened in that Italian cave where the 4 divers died following a DM who was not ready to lead those people. Unlike Shaw, he took others with him...

 

[boulderjohn]

David Shaw died because he was trying to be a hero. Imo, bringing up a corpse that has been uw for 10 years is not heroic. We have rov's for that.

Since the dive he did could have been done by a ROV, I guess that must mean he was an incompetent diver.

Ahhh, he is dead? Right? Okay he set a record. he walked away from it alive. That can count as skill or luck. To the outside observer, there is no difference. The fact that he did a fatal dive shows that there was on some level an error made. He takes responcibility for his error and he will remain dead.
...

If you want to be a good diver, train for the dives you want to do. Some people love to learn, more power to you! A cave course will make you a better diver. A cave course will not make you a good cave diver. Experience will. once you've done the course you will hopefully be the apprentice, with a master to learn from. Experience makes you the master.

My only point was that there can be a vast difference in learning depending upon the quality of the dive.

Not long ago there was a thread in the A & I forum in which one of the participants had more than 200 logged dives. That's quite a few. Every one of them was done off of a cruise ship in 40-60 feet of water. I think this will sound nuts to you, but I would rather go into a difficult dive with someone who has taken a lot of highly challenging classes (like cave instruction) but has only 100 dives than her, despite her greater number of dives.

In my experience with technical training, a whole lot more goes wrong on those training dives than you encounter on typical dives. These are artificial, but you still have to respond to them. I would say that on every one of the training dives I did for all my technical training, I had to respond to more emergencies than in all my lifetime real world dives combined. I learned something from those incidents that I would never have learned without them.

 

[ADeadlierSnake]

In reply to the OP, I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with wanting to tech dive while you are still a newb. And I mean that literally, as in there is nothing wrong with WANTING to do it (you obviously shouldnt be doing until you get training). I have always been fascinated by the ocean and the underwater realm in general. The day I did my first two dives of my OW certification, I knew I wanted to tech dive. I knew that there were people out there who dove really deep wrecks, penetrated caves, and saw places that ver very few people get to see. When we got off the boat after that first day of OW, I immediately asked my instructor about "that type" of diving. I didnt even know it was called tech diving. They enlightened me as to its name, and 2 years and a GUE-F tech pass later, Tech1 is finally on the horizon, although I still do not feel ready.

The point is, theres nothing wrong with wanting to tech dive. Just get proper training first! Since you didnt mention when he was "planning on taking it", I cant demonize him for that. I would recommend pointing him towards a GUE-F class, or UTD-E however. Something along those lines. I think what those classes really teach you is how much you dont know. So if you think he isnt ready yet, but he doesnt realize it himself, I might try nudging him in that direction.

Now, back to actually read what everyone else said

 

[DaleC]

I'm sure there's a dusty shelf somewhere.

I see the difference as being in GUE/UTD the onus is on the instructor to ensure skills proficiency. In mainstream agencies the onus seems to be on the student. Thus, it is entirely possible for a mainstream student to do well but it will come from their own motivation, everyone gets a card regardless. In DIR based agencies the push will come from the instructor in the form of a pass/fail.

 

[lowviz]

I'm sure there's a dusty shelf somewhere. ...//....

-still looking for my spot...

 

[boulderjohn]

I see the difference as being in GUE/UTD the onus is on the instructor to ensure skills proficiency. In mainstream agencies the onus seems to be on the student. Thus, it is entirely possible for a mainstream student to do well but it will come from their own motivation, everyone gets a card regardless. In DIR based agencies the push will come from the instructor in the form of a pass/fail.

Boy, as someone who has been through both, I sure don't see this difference at all.