Why new divers looking into instructor and tech diving

[DevonDiver]

A typical Intro to Tech class (for agencies other than GUE) is similar to fundies. If the diver goes into tech training, the first step is Intro to Tech. It's unavoidable.

John, I'm probably misinterpreting your post, but of the agencies I know (except for GUE/UTD), there is no prerequisite necessity to complete an 'intro-to-tech' or any other specific precursor course. There are recreational level prerequisites; typically nitrox, deep and rescue (or equiv), along with a logged dive requirement.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Out of curiosity...

Is there any reason to think pass/fail actually imparts more knowledge? To me pass/fail is just perpetuating the merit badge mind set. You pass this test you get a merit badge..err..card. Why? Because cards are...umm...expected in the scuba community. It all looks like stamp collecting to me. It's like the achievements in MMORPGs...totally pointless but some people get hooked on them.

I can understand getting a card if shops won't fill your tanks without one. Beyond that, you should seek knowledge and ability. You should always seek knowledge and ability and it has nothing to do with cards.

I've been playing guitar off and on for 25 years or so. Every so often I hire an instructor to show me some new tricks and break me out of any ruts/bad habits. I don't ask those instructors for cards, nor do those instructors do anything pass/fail, but I learn a lot. It makes me a better player. Surely that's the point of hiring an instructor???

Unless you have hard numbers that prove people learn faster or retain the information better in a pass/fail context, what's the point? Why is it better to "fail" someone than to continue their training? Surely the real answer isn't pass/fail but getting away from the boy scout merit badge mindset.

I'm not a trained tech diver and I don't play any musical instruments... but I have a hard time seeing how you equate guitar lessons to technical dive training. The consequences of poor performance vary significantly between the two activities.

 

[Them]

If that's what you choose to believe. I was merely offering advice, as you seem to be interested in the subject and your profile states you have little-to-no actually diving experience, including GUE courses.

I am interested. My current plan is to continue building skills with my diving and seek out training as I go to help refine and improve. I'm actually very frustrated with the badge (card) obsession in that my interest is purely in performance, not merit badges whether they are for AOW or GUE fundies. I also (currently) have zero interest in "tech" but I have spent enough time around water to know that there is no such thing as too much preparation.

I have done a lot of research on GUE and where/how I could take that,but I think the approach is FUBAR. I don't want "fundies", I want training as I progress.

Here's my problem in a nutshell: I went diving today and frankly it was great. Really awesome. About 87% of the time. I was slightly overweighted with my SS backplate and a HP100 cylinder, no lead, no neoprene, but I was still able to skim along above the bottom in a Superman pose, and even flood and clear my mask while hovering without ending up on the bottom or floating away. However... my long hose kept twisting and wanting to come out of where I had it tucked into the harness, and there were times when I wanted to back up. I was stuck in trial and error mode at that point. A bit of time with an instructor and I would be ready to keep diving up until I built up to my next limit. I don't need a "long hose" card, I would just benefit from some long hose advice.

The obsession with rushing into environments with less and less margin for error seems like...well I'd guess testosterone poisoning but that's obviously not it. I am not that hard up for adrenaline.

You're looking at the difference between enrolling on a set course and paying for private tuition. Forgive me for making the assumption that silly would include (1) many instructors don't/won't/can't offer private tuition or (2) that your willingness to pay for training is limited by budget or a desire for cost-effectiveness.

I don't know what you mean by the above paragraph. My income is decently into the six figures (USD), I'm single with no child support payments, and I don't have any terrible vices (no heroin or hookers) so I'm rarely budget limited. Likewise, if I'll pay $100/hr for a guitar lesson I don't see why I'd balk at a reasonable fee for scuba instruction.

Of course I'm not the sort to waste money, but paying for knowledge is rarely a waste.

There are all sorts of issues to consider, beyond student convenience.

Maybe it's inconvenient, maybe it isn't, who cares? The point is to focus on education and performance rather than cards and fixed courses. Performance seems to trump convenience, at least to me.

That's your assumption. My experience disagrees with that. What I've stated in previous posts is an observation from 10 years as a diving professional and 20+ years as a diver. Just my observations, nothing more, nothing less. Take it as you will.

No, it was my observation, based on.... well, I've actually intentionally and successfully exploited the psychological drives behind card collecting to make money.

 

[Them]

I'm not a trained tech diver and I don't play any musical instruments... but I have a hard time seeing how you equate guitar lessons to technical dive training. The consequences of poor performance vary significantly between the two activities.

Oh that's easy. Both are real time physical skills which require the ability to perform complex tasks for extended periods without any hesitation or false steps. The main difference is that music is usually performed by a group which is perfectly synchronized in real time down to the finest nuance, which is why musicians who want to be any good end up spending hours every day in intense practice just to maintain their skills.

A diver that practiced the way even a so/so muso must to stay in the game would... well I'd have to spend some time with the tables but I bet they would be in serious DCS trouble within the first week.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Why can't divers with less than two dozen dives be happy learning how to actually dive? Has anyone considered actually diving and gaining some perspective?

 

[TSandM]

Them, I'm with you on the peculiarity of diving being broken up into "classes". I've been taking "riding lessons" for over 20 years (and yes, not infrequently somebody asks me, "Are you still taking LESSONS? Haven't you learned how to ride yet?") and there is no end to them in sight. I have also taken diving lessons, and that was some of the most valuable training I've had. My friend, NW Grateful Diver, is now teaching a "skills workshop", which is two days devoted to improving whatever the diver thinks he most needs to improve, and Bob hasn't had a weekend free since he began doing this.

There is no particular need to "package" diving skills into set menus, but it's the way it's generally done.

 

[DevonDiver]

My friend, NW Grateful Diver, is now teaching a "skills workshop", which is two days devoted to improving whatever the diver thinks he most needs to improve, and Bob hasn't had a weekend free since he began doing this.

I've been doing the same for a while now (workshops), but whilst popular, I can't say that they've been overwhelming. The biggest concern students seem to have is that they want some definitive evidence/proof of that training, where it might make a difference in perception/provision to them as customers from future dive operators.

That may be slightly skewed though, as the majority of workshops/mentoring I do are more focused towards wreck diving (core skills and guideline/penetration work), rather than just refinement of generic diving ability (buoyancy, trim, weighting, propulsion, gas management, awareness etc). Having definitive proof of developed skills/training in wreck penetration may be more necessary compared to just 'being a good diver'.

I'd reference all the discussions about 'needing AOW' certification... the value of a lesson (and card) is that you have some proof to show of your experience over a dive center counter. That can make a subsequent difference in the services you enjoy (what sites they will take you to etc).

The same is true of the pre-tech clinics that I run. I guess these are very similar to how Fundies started. There's not a big uptake though - as they aren't a formal pre-requisite for either of the agencies I teach tech for. They tend to be used more for remedial work, rather than preparation.

 

[eelnoraa]

That said, if you talk to just about anyone who has taken Fundies, they'll invariably tell you that it was the TAKING, and not the PASSING (or otherwise) of the course that was the greatest benefit for their diving. Quite a few people got what they were seeking in the class with a Provisional or Recreational Pass; in the end, it's really ends up being about what the students wants to get out of it.

This is so true, at least for me and students in my class. After the first day of my fundie, I really didn't care pass or not anymore. I just wanted to learn as much as I can from the instructors. And I knew even if I couldn't pass, I would learn was enough to worth my time and money.

 

[boulderjohn]

John, I'm probably misinterpreting your post, but of the agencies I know (except for GUE/UTD), there is no prerequisite necessity to complete an 'intro-to-tech' or any other specific precursor course. There are recreational level prerequisites; typically nitrox, deep and rescue (or equiv), along with a logged dive requirement.

You are misinterpreting my post. I agree with you. Eelnoraa said that instead of starting tech instruction, he should take Intro to Tech. If you take tech instruction from an agency other than GUE/UTD, your first course is Intro to Tech, so I can't understand the difference between going directly into tech and taking Intro to Tech. (Come to think of it, I even have an Intro to Tech card from UTD.)

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The same is true of the pre-tech clinics that I run. I guess these are very similar to how Fundies started. There's not a big uptake though - as they aren't a formal pre-requisite for either of the agencies I teach tech for. They tend to be used more for remedial work, rather than preparation.

I have started the same thing. IT is too early to see how it will play out, but I have hopes that it will attract an audience that is either wanted to complete their recreational skills or see if Tech is something they might be interested in.