Why new divers looking into instructor and tech diving

[DaleC]

I can name quite a few from my fundie experience. I was pretty green when I took fundie, so this is my obervation from students who have way more experience, and way better divers (no kidding) than me. Again, not everyone will have this habbit, maybe you don't.

1. getting use to donate the long hose.
2. when donate long hose, grab the hose next to the 2nd stage, not the 2nd stage itself.
3. clip off long hose when you are not using it, out of water or in water
4. shaking light mean in stress, not "hey, look at that fish"
5. control descent with the team, not descent and wait at the bottom, even the bottom is 30 feets
6. be aware of the state of your teammates (closely), stop and fix things if they are out of place
7. maintain trim even when task loaded, that means head up, butt clinch .. proper prosture

I can easily name more. The thing is you need to be able to do those naturally without need to think about it. If you got used to old habbits that do it in another way, then you may have to hard time making the change in the short period of time. Also, these all seems like simple and small things, but this is what fundie is about, getting the small things, the fundamental, right

I guess I should have been a little clearer - any skills you had a problem unlearning or relearning. Those things you describe are pretty basic and not solely the property of Fundies either. I dive a longhose (shorthose and doublehose), use my light for communication, can maintain fairly good position and try to remain aware of my buddies condition during the dive. No fundies!

I learned #1 and #2 by watching a youtube video.
#3 by stepping on my reg once.
#4 when someone said, hey stop doing that. Do this instead.
#5... I still drop down and RZ below because I duck dive. I can't stand the slow pokes who dither away dumping out their inflator hoses and vertical descending I just watch them come down.
#6 I've just always assumed that was what I was supposed to do.
#7 I believe that is an artificial construct that comes out of overhead diving and I don't subscribe to it.

But you bring up an interesting point. Do you feel more competent having learned two ways to do things or would you have rather just learned the one and never had exposure to the other. Would limiting your exposure increase your knowledge pool or diminish it. For me, I make a study of historical practices and have attempted to learn as much as I can of the techniques from the inception of diving till present (this weekend I will be both sidemount and vintage equipment diving). I don't feel restricted or confused by the shifting of equipment/skillsets. Rather, I feel better informed.

If I'm sufficiently bored I will try sidemounting vintage equipment and take a video of it - that should be amusing (but not perplexing).

 

[DevonDiver]

1. getting use to donate the long hose.
2. when donate long hose, grab the hose next to the 2nd stage, not the 2nd stage itself.
3. clip off long hose when you are not using it, out of water or in water
4. shaking light mean in stress, not "hey, look at that fish"
5. control descent with the team, not descent and wait at the bottom, even the bottom is 30 feets
6. be aware of the state of your teammates (closely), stop and fix things if they are out of place
7. maintain trim even when task loaded, that means head up, butt clinch .. proper prosture

I'd expect that from those OW students I train, who opt for BP&W/long-hose as their training configuration.

Good skills are not the preserve of Fundies. However, Fundies is the only course that focuses on them as training/performance standards. With other agencies/courses, the development of core competencies/configurational procedures is at the discretion of the instructor - a variable element.

 

[Griffo]

I'm curious what skills you think you would have had difficulty unlearning or relearning? Can you name one please. I think a great myth is that following a single pathway from start to finish will make one a better technical diver than some early exposure to multiple disciplines.

Adding to what Eelnoraa said..
a) learning to use the light-head in the left hand
b) learning to signal OK with the light automatically
c) clearing the long hose on donating
d) being weighted correctly and knowing just what that feels like and how to balance a rig
e) learning to use a BT and not a computer and becoming reliant on it
f) having the rig set right so I can reach my valves
g) learning how to use bolt-snaps, how to orient them in your hand, how to open and close them in cold water in gloves without getting the stupid things caught
h) learing how to control position in the water without thinking about it
i) learning how to deal with stress underwater without holding your breath (this was a big one for me)

and more.. the point is that all those things become automatic so when it comes time to do advanced training, those fundamentals are second nature, therefore reducing task loading. I felt a good 20% of fundies was unlearning things, i'd hate to be doing that during a tech course.


For reference, almost all of my post fundies diving has been with non gue divers. I never said there was only one way to learn, just that by giving a student a whole lot of the tech methods up front, that those 100 or 200 or 500 dives before attempting a cave or adv wreck course have been spent cementing those core skills to the point that they are automatic.
I also hope to try different methods in the future - i may give sidemount a go, i think i'm likely to do a TDI course or two, and I might even try one of those death machines. Fundies for me was a shortcut to avoiding learning practices that I would have to un-learn or re-learn later. It doesn't make me as experienced as a 500 dive diver, but it might mean that I can spend the courses on wreck diving concentrating on the wreck skills, and not spending 50% of my conscious thought on keeping in trim and off the wreck.

 

[eelnoraa]

2. when donate long hose, grab the hose next to the 2nd stage, not the 2nd stage itself.
4. shaking light mean in stress, not "hey, look at that fish"
5. control descent with the team, not descent and wait at the bottom, even the bottom is 30 feets
6. be aware of the state of your teammates (closely), stop and fix things if they are out of place
7. maintain trim even when task loaded, that means head up, butt clinch .. proper prosture[

I'd expect that from those OW students I train, who opt for BP&W/long-hose as their training configuration.

By no mean Fundie is the only way to learn it, but most other agency/instructors don't think they are important. In my pass two dive trips, one in Thailand, one in Hawaii, all stuffs/instructors/DMs violated #2, #4 and #5. #4 stressed the hack out of me. For #5, there are different levels of situation awareness. IMO, this requires instructor's expereince. Instructors with tech/cave/wreck background will have much higher level of awareness. A zero to hero OW instructor will let lots of potential issues slip. For #6, I really doubt OW student can nail this.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

In the U.S. military you have be part of the Regular Army/Service before you can volunteer for Special Force training,you first have to meet the standards/guidelines ,once you are accepted and start training you can be dropped from training anytime and for pretty much any reason it is the instructors call.My point is that scuba DM/Instructor training is nothing like that, a lot of agencies have the "Pay your money get your cert." attitude and push through Dive masters and Instructors who have NO place teaching or supervising people in the water.

correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you meet these guidelines right out of basic training, not after years of service?? And wouldn't this be the same for some going from OW to any other course they desire?

 

[DevonDiver]

By no mean Fundie is the only way to learn it, but most other agency/instructors don't think they are important.

Because, quite simply, for open water divers in recreational depths, most of those skills aren't important. OW Divers don't need to use long hose, or helicopter turn, or use light communications. They might choose to do so, if future plans included cave/wreck/tech diving - and if so, appropriate supplemental training exists for them...

The issue of task-loading...and consequent detriment to core skills performance is (IMHO) a matter of experience. Whenever significant demand is placed upon a diver, other -recently acquired, but not fully ingrained - skills will be damaged.

The process of ingraining skills comes with experience. No course, from no agency, enables ingrained skills. Fundies puts an emphasis on core skills... the diver then knows to focus on them. Quite often, that focus comes before the training starts, in preparation... The benefit is in the focus on skills, not some 'wonder training' to develop them.

 

[DaleC]

The like button is down atm, but I agree with DD above. The course introduces the skill, experience ingrains/perfects it.

I guess I just have a different tolerance for learning skills. I've never seen what I learned previously as some sort of barrier or impediment to what I will learn in the future just because it does not follow all neat and sequentially.

But, even if we accept that at face value, isn't it a good thing when diving with non GUE divers that you were at one time familiar with the techniques and equipment they use, so you aren't at a complete loss as to what they are doing - or is that somehow taken for granted.

Just think of how those divers respond the first time they see a longhose. Would you really want to be that way when seeing an octo in the triangle.

Do you know how they will donate their octo or is it a mystery.

If they hand off holding the reg can you cope or are you overwhelmed.

When they waggle their light do you react or respond, looking at their body language eyes to see if the are staring at a fish.

If they show you their computer do you know how to interpret the data or are you baffled by all the info...


Please don't tell me you regret your exposure to these things and would prefer to only be operationally aware of the practices/equipment found within the narrow confines of one methodology. This scripted unlearn/relearn avoidance justification is way over-rated and ignores the benefits one gains by exposure to multiple disciplines.

 

[DevonDiver]

You know... the more I think about it... the 'magic' of fundies is simply the existence of a pass/fail criteria. Students shoot for the pass... they rehearse and refine in advance of training (or they fail, refine and repeat).

If an alternative course, for instance 'Peak Performance Buoyancy' was subject to strict performance standards and a pass/fail criteria was firmly presented to potential students - I think it would have a similar benefit for high quality development. Of course, it doesn't... despite the existence of performance standards, it is run like an attendance course, certification is 99.9% guaranteed.

Tech training is quite likely to be a divers' first experience of pass/fail based on strict performance criteria. GUE brought that concept forwards into the recreational diving levels with fundies (a very good idea for qualitative improvement).

 

[USFpsychDiver]

For my 1st 6 months or so of diving I had continual trim problems, heavy feet, floaty feet, always feeling like I was rolling to one side or the other and having to twist my body back around. I'd taken OW and AOW but neither of those directly addressed buoyancy and trim (some may, mine didn't, although my daughters AOW did have a buoyancy component). I'd read postings from people who were using my kind of BC and make adjustments, but they were always kind of blind, just trying things out based on general suggestions. Plus water temp was changing across those 6 months so I was always wearing different amounts of exposure protection. Thus every dive my gear setup was slightly different, and I couldn't figure out what was doing what with my trim. I'm sure with another few months and a bunch more dives and I would have gotten things figured out, but instead I decided to get some training. The two options I considered were Peak Performance Buoyancy and Cavern. PPB directly addressed what I was needing help with, but I knew that Cavern required excellent buoyancy and trim, plus it opened up more environments for diving (I'd had boat trips cancelled at the dock because of weather, and some of the folks headed up to dive springs instead, and I wanted that option too). In one day of cavern class my instructor took a look at my rig, made a few adjustments and suggested a couple more that I made later, and we went in the caverns and did line, lost buddy, and lights out drills, etc., none of which specifically dealt with trim, but my trim and buoyancy were nailed down after that class and weren't a problem again (well, until I put on a drysuit and doubles, but that's another story). I'm sure I would have gotten things figured out by trial-and-error eventually, but just a little introductory tech training changed my rec abilities and enjoyment profoundly and quickly.

 

[eelnoraa]

Because, quite simply, for open water divers in recreational depths, most of those skills aren't important. OW Divers don't need to use long hose, or helicopter turn, or use light communications.

I respectfully disagree with this. Sure OW students don't absolutely need this skill to keep them safe, but there are more to protect then the divers themselves underwater. Bad finning techniques and no buoyancy control I observed in my dive trips, broke corals, disturbed sea creatures, kicked up silt in lava tube passage .... If we keep this up, the quality of underwater world will degrade.

You know... the more I think about it... the 'magic' of fundies is simply the existence of a pass/fail criteria. Students shoot for the pass... they rehearse and refine in advance of training (or they fail, refine and repeat).

I think the magic of fundie or equivalent type of class (so not just GUE) is the general high competency of the instructors. At least mine have abolutely amazing underwater skill. On top of that, they also have the ability to transfer knowledge, ability to see even the smallest mistakes student make, and request for a correction. Even those it means more work for them.

This is NOT to say other agency's instructors are not competent. I am sure lots of other agency's instructors are just as competent. However, the common demoninator is low. Out of the class, the students can only be as good as the instructors.

As for fail/pass, I do agree it to a point. Fundie isn't a walk in the park kind of class like PADI AOW. It requires student to work hard and commit, and failing is not too impossible. If you ask "I am only diving OW, why do I need those skill, why do I want to pay so much for another recreation level class? .... " then you are not likely to take fundie.