Why give primary instead of alternate regulator?

[AJ]

Yeah, yeah. In the words of Mike Tyson, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. It's amazing how our "automated" skills degrade so quickly when it's not a drill.

You were given some real world reports about what actually happens in OOA situations by someone who has a LOT of experience, to help us make better contingency plans. Are you saying that because of your buddy selection, gear maintenance and training, nothing like that would ever happen to you?

Maybe you missed the point what I was trying to say? I meant I do everything I can to be prepared, but I hope I never has to use these skills for real....because I do not truly know how I would react in a real in real emergency. That being said, I did about some 600 dives where some mishaps did happen for instance putting myself out of air during a valve drill (my bad ), being harrased by my instructor by closing my valve unexpected (not funny at all ) and losing buoyancy control due to a leaking wing elbow (my bad also, lesson learned to check my gear ). So I do have some clue about how I am going to react to a real emergency

 

[doctormike]

Maybe you missed the point what I was trying to say? I meant I do everything I can to be prepared, but I hope I never has to use these skills for real....because I do not truly know how I would react in a real in real emergency. That being said, I did about some 600 dives where some mishaps did happen for instance putting myself out of air during a valve drill (my bad ), being harrased by my instructor by closing my valve unexpected (not funny at all ) and losing buoyancy control due to a leaking wing elbow (my bad also, lesson learned to check my gear ). So I do have some clue about how I am going to react to a real emergency

OK, that's a little different, sorry if I misunderstood.

But your last post, responding to Pete's description of three real world OOA events, seemed to be refuting the point he was making. Primary donate means that the OOG diver is absolutely, 100% getting a working regulator with a breathable mix. And in a real OOG situation, primary donate may well be forced, no matter what you plan for.

Saying that you take good care of your gear and do checks and train doesn't address those things, but of course, those are all admirable efforts.

 

[Superlyte27]

Maybe you missed the point what I was trying to say? I meant I do everything I can to be prepared, but I hope I never has to use these skills for real....because I do not truly know how I would react in a real in real emergency. That being said, I did about some 600 dives where some mishaps did happen for instance putting myself out of air during a valve drill (my bad ), being harrased by my instructor by closing my valve unexpected (not funny at all ) and losing buoyancy control due to a leaking wing elbow (my bad also, lesson learned to check my gear ). So I do have some clue about how I am going to react to a real emergency

The problem isn't you though. It's the panicking diver you've never met before who rushes up to you and grabs your reg.

 

[barth]

OK, that's a little different, sorry if I misunderstood.

But your last post, responding to Pete's description of three real world OOA events, seemed to be refuting the point he was making. Primary donate means that the OOG diver is absolutely, 100% getting a working regulator with a breathable mix. And in a real OOG situation, primary donate may well be forced, no matter what you plan for.

Saying that you take good care of your gear and do checks and train doesn't address those things, but of course, those are all admirable efforts.

I think it depends of the divers.

your gas won’t be disappeared in a few seconds.

If you see that your buddy has a problem you shouldn’t wait till he is out of gas. You should give him a regulator before that happens.

Every diver should monitor his own air/gas and do a gasplanning before the dive.

Last time my buddy need my longhose a lot things went wrong.

My own buddy wasn’t able to dive.

I decided to dive with an unknown buddy. He was using a single 12 liter tank with 180 bar. He wanted to dive thirds. He want to start the ascent at 60 bar. He want to use a stage to do the ascent.

I told him that was not a good plan. His buddy’s told him that it was not a good plan.

But I did wait 4 hours for the tide. I didn’t want to mis the tide and dive.

When there was 60 bar left in his single tank at 30 meter he decided to do a gas switch and to start the ascent. He did open the valve of his stage. There were a lot of bubbles. He tried to fix it. It didn’t work. There was 40 bar left in his single tank.

There was 130 bar left in my doubles. I gave him my longhose. We started the ascent. I did launch my smb and we did the safety stops.

I think it was stupid of myself to do the dive. I knew it was not a good gasplanning.

But I think it was the right thing to donate my longhose before he was out of gas.

 

[KenGordon]

The problem isn't you though. It's the panicking diver you've never met before who rushes up to you and grabs your reg.

We can apply Darwinian pressure there by breathing the necklaced short hose and having the long hose bungeed in BSAC style. The OOG diver will get nothing as the hose is too short. The ‘donating’ then swaps to the octopus. One fewer reg stealer.

Personally I breath the long hose but brief people that if they steal it they are likely to end up watching me swim down and away.

Maybe muppets are common in caves, but I find that encountering them randomly in the water is very rare. There is lots of water so encountering other people is unlikely other than on the shot.

On the other hand there are lots of people who seem to want to come over like supermen who can handle having a regulator stolen while breathing off of it.

Is it actually common in the US to have students take regulators like this? Do instructors also subject students to having regulators stolen? What happens if they get hurt doing that?

 

[loosenit2]

Training is a process where a formal system is followed to transfer knowledge. It is different to experience, or learning by watching. When a point is missed or a standard not reached the training involves rectifying the problem.

In the case of AS a diver is shown what to do several times and cannot pass the course without satisfactory performance. Change how that works and some feedback and review is required, otherwise how does the diver know they are doing it properly?

The definition you provided of training is one that the agencies would probably love but I question.

I pulled a few definitions of training from dictionaries: 1. a process by which someone is taught the skills that are needed for an art, profession, or job, 2. the act, process, or method of one that trains; 3. Training means learning to do something. It includes practicing skills. The term is used for learning to do jobs, or play games.

By your definition training always requires 1. a formal system, 2. an expert to "transfer" knowledge, 3. a performance check of some sort. This definition discounts humans ability to learn, self educate, explore new areas of knowledge, and potentially innovate with new methods of education and training.

I switched to primary donate without any training by your definition. It was not hard and I have built muscle memory quite effectively. I watched and listened to others who use primary donate, I read published material on primary donate, I referenced my agency training material that covered Air2 configurations, I procured the material, and I practiced primary donate movements by myself and then with a buddy to ensure I could perform the maneuvers. Since switching I continue to practice the skill from time to time for maintenance, as I do with all my skills.

There was no in-person expert to transfer knowledge to me or check my performance using formal standards. As a result of using a self-training methodology am I a danger to myself or others? After using primary donate for several months now and having built experience using it I have no reason to believe that is a true statement; I am comfortable with the system, have build muscle memory with it to the point that if I anticipate a problem with someone else's regulator my hand moves first to my primary to be ready, and I have performed the skill under a variety of conditions and in a variety of environments.

I will acknowledge that I am more methodical that many others might be. There is a group of folks who might just copy things they see on youtube or hear on a board without truly understanding what they are doing or why but I tend to think it is a bit much to require a formal system of training. PADI would probably love it though, perhaps a primary donate specialty card will be the next one they come out with?

I will also acknowledge that all skills are not the same. Switching to primary donate is a relatively simple transition, I would not have attempted learning cave diving in the same way as it is much more complex and riskier.

 

[AfterDark]

I think it depends of the divers.

your gas won’t be disappeared in a few seconds.

If you see that your buddy has a problem you shouldn’t wait till he is out of gas. You should give him a regulator before that happens.

Every diver should monitor his own air/gas and do a gasplanning before the dive.

Last time my buddy need my longhose a lot things went wrong.

My own buddy wasn’t able to dive.

I decided to dive with an unknown buddy. He was using a single 12 liter tank with 180 bar. He wanted to dive thirds. He want to start the ascent at 60 bar. He want to use a stage to do the ascent.

I told him that was not a good plan. His buddy’s told him that it was not a good plan.

But I did wait 4 hours for the tide. I didn’t want to mis the tide and dive.

When there was 60 bar left in his single tank at 30 meter he decided to do a gas switch and to start the ascent. He did open the valve of his stage. There were a lot of bubbles. He tried to fix it. It didn’t work. There was 40 bar left in his single tank.

There was 130 bar left in my doubles. I gave him my longhose. We started the ascent. I did launch my smb and we did the safety stops.

I think it was stupid of myself to do the dive. I knew it was not a good gasplanning.

But I think it was the right thing to donate my longhose before he was out of gas.

This does go some towards equipment checks and care as well as the plan. If his gear had worked (as planned) he probably would have pulled it off.

 

[Superlyte27]

We can apply Darwinian pressure there by breathing the necklaced short hose and having the long hose bungeed in BSAC style. The OOG diver will get nothing as the hose is too short. The ‘donating’ then swaps to the octopus. One fewer reg stealer.

Personally I breath the long hose but brief people that if they steal it they are likely to end up watching me swim down and away.

Maybe muppets are common in caves, but I find that encountering them randomly in the water is very rare. There is lots of water so encountering other people is unlikely other than on the shot.

On the other hand there are lots of people who seem to want to come over like supermen who can handle having a regulator stolen while breathing off of it.

Is it actually common in the US to have students take regulators like this? Do instructors also subject students to having regulators stolen? What happens if they get hurt doing that?

I've never been diving and encountered an OOA cave diver. Surely you know I do other types of diving?

 

[J-Vo]

I feel it needs to be stated that if your in proper trim "The Triangle" is not accessible to the OOA diver. Placing the alternate in the triangle only makes since while standing in the classroom.

 

[KenGordon]

This definition discounts humans ability to learn, self educate, explore new areas of knowledge, and potentially innovate with new methods of education and training.

Learning and education are different to training. Training may involve those. It is definitely possible to be educated about a thing without being trained in it.

I expect I could learn cave diving, or flying, that way too, but trying it seems risky. The bit where the instructor tested my ability would be missing, so when I had failed to properly understand something, or my skill was poor, the gap would not be addressed. That probably would not matter, until it did.

Another point people seem to miss when they discount face to face training is that the instructor will probably have met the student’s difficulty previously. They will have found a way to overcome the difficulty or anticipate it and provide demos or explanations to specifically help the student.

I don’t get paid to teach people, and when I am the student I generally find the tuition is the cheap bit compared to my time off, travel etc. Training is horribly undervalued.

Sometimes training is rubbish. I have been on computer courses where I might as well have just read the book. Even then though, taking the time to exclusively concentrate on the subject helps.