Why give primary instead of alternate regulator?
- Thread starter ScubaRob0311
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lowviz, I'm interpreting Ken differently than you seem to be.
Seems to me that he's saying be safe.
Seems to me he said it's OK for his kid to use standard kit and be trained in same if that's the kit and training those he's, diving with Re using/trained with.
Or am I reading it that way because that's my position.
Meanwhile, I ask again (though not of you lowviz), who among you have been mugged for your primary or alternate(safe second/octo)?
What kind of drone? Sounds like you are accusing me of being a DIR drone because I quoted Gareth? I try to break rule 5 (rebreathers) as often as I can.
You don’t often read about people that dive by the rules, whichever set, in the BSAC incident report. Every year, for decades, it says words to the effect of “if these people did as they were trained they would have been ok”.
Apparently SB agrees with that about caves but not about how to deal with an OOG situation.
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@chillyinCanada OK, got it. There is a fine point in our discussion that means everything to me.
He is saying 'be safe' in his world, I'm saying 'be safe' in my world. I was baptized in the Atlantic on the John-Jack under captain Zero's watch. No small feat.
All sorts of weird s$$t comes at you unannounced. My favorite was a couple of instructors who beat off a DM who screwed up at depth and mugged them on the way up the upline. He made it out and the instructors had endless reasons as to why they responded as they did.
So now you have two examples from one diver of being mugged. One successful, one not so much...
He is saying 'be safe' in his world, I'm saying 'be safe' in my world. I was baptized in the Atlantic on the John-Jack under captain Zero's watch. No small feat.
All sorts of weird s$$t comes at you unannounced. My favorite was a couple of instructors who beat off a DM who screwed up at depth and mugged them on the way up the upline. He made it out and the instructors had endless reasons as to why they responded as they did.
So now you have two examples from one diver of being mugged. One successful, one not so much...
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It would be best if you put me on 'Ignore'.
I'm not following you here though Ken. What do you mean with regard to Scubaboard? Please enunciate clearly for me, I'm sleep deprived.
I asked the people with the data behind the BSAC Incident Reports how this broke down. Over about 180 OOG incidents there were one or two cases where a primary was taken. There were a handful of primary donates and mostly secondary donates or secondary takes. The take away was that people do as they were trained.
This contradicts the SB consensus that a OOG diver will panic and take the primary no matter what. However, having watched the Lake Hickory video above I see that some divers are being trained to take a primary. Which agency says that is ok?
Of course many of the U.K. divers are trained in a different system to the one SB’ers grew up with and many are diving in an environment which strongly discourages inadequate AS, so those divers will usually have a choice about which regulator to take.
The behaviour of divers under stress is hard to predict. There was a guy died a few years ago after refusing working regulators from his team following a badly diagnosed hose failure. I have had a diver with a freeflow not understand that the bubbles were theirs and refuse a regulator.
They jump down the throat of people, for example 60plus, and close down threads for condoning going into a sea cave without full cave training, but happily let people recommend changing breathing/AS configs with training provided by watching you tube.I'm not following you here though Ken. What do you mean with regard to Scubaboard? Please enunciate clearly for me, I'm sleep deprived.
I see where Ken is going and I side with him on this one.
Divers are unpredictable in a real situation. AND despite how skilled a diver may think they are on a forum, until they get in a real situation, they don't know how they'll react.
I've had an "experienced" (sub 50 dives) diver panic, spit their reg, and bolt to the surface while refusing my reg.
On Con Ed courses, whether it be AoW, Rescue, DM or specialty, I always review basic skills. I brief OOA before the 1st dive, and at some point during that dive, at a safe point I will "surprise" the student by signaling OOA. 90% of the time its a real CF. By that I mean if I was really panicking it could turn into a real disaster why they sort out giving me a reg etc.
This is because their mind has gone blank. Despite us having carried out a dry run on the surface.
People (especially on SB) focus too much on the gear and the configuration (often debating to death some minor point) but fail to focus on the most important point, being able to actually carry out the skill
Fortunately real life OOA is rare, most divers will never see one. And most divers will not keep their skills refreshed.
I get, that vaction divers or those diving with insta buddies may #not have the opportunity to practice in water skills.
That does not stop anyone however, dry practicing their skills, Walk around the hose or garden and talk yourself through each step, practicing the hand movements. Underwater, run your hands over yoru gear, and be able to find and manipulate yoru gear by touch and without looking etc
So my POV is this: It matters not, whether you are a primary or secondary donate person. what matters is that in a real time of crises you can smoothly and easily donate a working reg, then calmly control the situation and bring a stressed diver safely to the surface. Getting a working reg in their mouth is only 50% of the skill.
Divers are unpredictable in a real situation. AND despite how skilled a diver may think they are on a forum, until they get in a real situation, they don't know how they'll react.
I've had an "experienced" (sub 50 dives) diver panic, spit their reg, and bolt to the surface while refusing my reg.
On Con Ed courses, whether it be AoW, Rescue, DM or specialty, I always review basic skills. I brief OOA before the 1st dive, and at some point during that dive, at a safe point I will "surprise" the student by signaling OOA. 90% of the time its a real CF. By that I mean if I was really panicking it could turn into a real disaster why they sort out giving me a reg etc.
This is because their mind has gone blank. Despite us having carried out a dry run on the surface.
People (especially on SB) focus too much on the gear and the configuration (often debating to death some minor point) but fail to focus on the most important point, being able to actually carry out the skill
Fortunately real life OOA is rare, most divers will never see one. And most divers will not keep their skills refreshed.
I get, that vaction divers or those diving with insta buddies may #not have the opportunity to practice in water skills.
That does not stop anyone however, dry practicing their skills, Walk around the hose or garden and talk yourself through each step, practicing the hand movements. Underwater, run your hands over yoru gear, and be able to find and manipulate yoru gear by touch and without looking etc
So my POV is this: It matters not, whether you are a primary or secondary donate person. what matters is that in a real time of crises you can smoothly and easily donate a working reg, then calmly control the situation and bring a stressed diver safely to the surface. Getting a working reg in their mouth is only 50% of the skill.
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